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Conversation | 05/20/2008 10:29 am

At a Table in So-Called Liberal NYC, Woman Announces: I’ll Never Vote for a Black Man for President

© AP

Editor’s Note: Featuring Kathleen Jamieson, director of the Annenberg Public Policy Center, a professor of communications and the former dean of the Annenberg School for Communication at the University of Pennsylvania.

LESLEY: So I’m so glad that you all could join us today. Liz Smith, obviously we know who Liz Smith is; Kathleen Hall Jamieson, Director of the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania and an expert on campaigns; and we are blessed with Candice Bergen. Let’s get started right off the bat, discussing the topic du jour, the campaign. Actually it’s the topic of every day. But let’s talk about the three “isms”: racism, sexism and ageism, starting with racism. Here’s my question: It has for long, I think, been that racism is a hidden issue. If voters made decisions because of race, they often lied to pollsters. It was kind of shameful. Do any of you get the feeling that that is changing, ever since the Rev. Wright issue exploded? Do you have a feeling that people are more willing to openly admit that they won’t vote for Obama because of race? Kathleen, are you picking up any of this?

Click here to read Part Two: Percentage of Voters Say They Would Never Vote for a Woman, Regardless of Qualifications.

Click here to read Part Three: Who Says Older Ages Equal Serious Health Problems?

KATHLEEN: Well, we’re seeing it in surveys. We’re seeing a percent of the population that doesn’t say it wouldn’t, but does say it would be less likely, or that race is a factor in vote. And then when you parse the question by saying, “Is race increasing or decreasing the likelihood of your vote?” what you actually see is, it’s increasing likelihood for some and decreasing likelihood for others. And then you have to ask, “And then what do those two things mean and how do we parse all that back into our history?”

LESLEY: But are people more willing to admit this than ever before? Or is it just a feeling one gets?

KATHLEEN: I don’t think we know whether they’re more willing because, in the past, we haven’t framed the question that way. And so I think it’s a great question and I don’t think we have an answer.

LIZ: If you look at The New York Times from Monday, it looks like America has racism pretty much under control when Obama can draw 75,000 people to a rally in Oregon. That’s just an incredible picture. The enthusiasm for that is incredible. Of course … that means nothing.

LESLEY: Liz, you and I went to a very fancy-schmancy dinner party in New York the other night. And a woman at our table, in so-called liberal New York City, announced to our table that she would never vote for a black to be in the White House. That’s what she said. And everybody else at the table was shocked and started to yell at her. But she felt perfectly comfortable saying that.

LIZ: Well, I was just glad nobody overturned the table …

LESLEY: Well, they wanted to. But the point is … I hear it more. That’s why I’m asking this question.

KATHLEEN: Lesley, when you hear it, do people then give you some reason? It seems to me that saying that should be unacceptable unless one has a reason. And I can’t think of a reason that could legitimize that conclusion.

LESLEY: What I was wondering is, does that mean that the Rev. Wright issue changed peoples’ attitudes in a way that it’s no longer as shameful for some people?

LIZ: Yeah, that’s a very good point, Lesley. I think that’s true. But, honestly, this woman the other night that you refer to at our dinner, that is the first overt thing I’ve ever had anybody say in my presence in – honestly — in years. So maybe today people are more politically correct; but privately they may be something else.

182 Reader Comments (so far…) Sign In or Register to comment

Elizabeth Bennett
Still you have to wonder about the mental processes of someone who will not only not vote for someone just because of their race, but someone who will pronounce it at a dinner party. I remember when people were saying they would not vote for Kennedy because he was Catholic. Now we have a Supreme Court that is mostly Catholic and no one thinks twice about it. Tom Bradley, when mayor of L.A. once ran for governor of California. Most of us thought he would win. The polls indicated that he would win. But he did not win. The discrepancy between the polls and the vote was called “the Bradley Effect.” Ostensibly it was due to people who did not want to vote for a black man but did not want to admit it. [I still wonder if the Segretti/Rove wing of the Republican party didn’t mess with the vote count.] The thing is that race as we in our culture tend to define it, does not even make any sense on a genetic level. There is more difference between groups of black people, perhaps from different parts of Africa, than there is a difference between any given black person and any caucasian. Heck, Obama is even distantly related to Dick Cheney. This mildly troubles me, but Obama is impressive enough to overlook his cousin, the Dark Lord. I am not sure that the West Virginia vote can be claimed to be the product of racism. Hillary Clinton is an excellent candidate and she has been campaigning in a way to reach people who do not believe they have been reached in a long time. Maybe you can give West Virginians more credit. Maybe they just really wanted to be heard. Still, I do believe that there are some people who will not vote for anyone other than a white male. This year there may be some people who will not vote for anyone other than a woman. In 2000, there was a poll that really amazed me; 4% of the Florida Bush voters thought they were voting for his father. I wonder if they knew that they were voting for the ne’er-do-well son, if they would have changed their vote. The trick with voter malpractice, which is what all of this is, is that the candidates have to always try for a landslide. When it gets close to tying, incompetent people can be selected.
By Elizabeth Bennett on 05/20/2008 12:35 pm
EKA -
My guess is that woman was over 60. All of the polling in this election has shown that Obama’s worst demographic is senior citizens … the GOOD NEWS is that his best demographic is young people, therefore this problem will take care of itself eventually, if you know what I mean. I am the mother of three sons in their 30’s, all Obama supporters, who all date without regard to race. I like to think it is because of how their father and I raised them, to see only the quality of a person, not racial differences. They think putting people into categories is so “old fashioned”, something their grandmother did when she asked “what is he ?” about some of their bi-racial friends. Their response, “he’s a kid grandma “. Most of their friends are the same way. We are really starting to live in a post-racial world. An Obama presidency would be a wonderful thing… what race is he ? WHO CARES !
By EKA - on 05/20/2008 12:39 pm
Mugsy Peabody
Class, class, please pull out your notebooks. Now, here is a beautiful example of ageist @#$%^. It is possible that senior citizens voted against Sen. Obama because Sen. Clinton has a superior health care plan, and health care is No. 1 issue among people over 60. It is also possible that senior citizens are in favor of Sen. Clinton because she has more experience than Sen. Obama, and senior citizens might well understand and value experience more than other groups. People over 60, E.K.A. Sayers, are the people who brought you the Civil Rights Movement, hello?
By Mugsy Peabody on 05/20/2008 7:07 pm
Frannie Em
Hey Mugsy As a block more seniors vote than college students. They have to watch their budgets more than others since they are on fixed incomes. Therefore, issues of raising fees, taxes or things of that nature affect them so they get out and vote. I was a campaign manager in a local election for awhile, and courted the senior vote for my candidate. In my area seniors 98.9% of seniors vote.
By Frannie Em on 05/21/2008 10:00 pm
doll lady
Pfffffffffft to the woman who said she would never vote for a black man. Our founding fathers said “all men are created equal”. The Bible teaches: Christians should not discriminate based on race, gender, cultural background, or social standing (Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11; James 2:1-4. IN MY OPINION, this woman was not taught the basic principals of christianity nor the history of america and her upbringing was sadly lacking. IN MY OPINION, she is a schmuck to say that type of thing, comfortable or not.
By doll lady on 05/20/2008 12:44 pm
K O
This subject covers an interesting issue with a couple of points. 1. Racism vs. sexism. On 1/8/08, a couple of men interrupted Senator Clinton’s speech yelling “Iron my shirts.” It appears to me that sexism is more overt that racism in this election. 2. PC vs honesty. I don’t know whether most people will admit their biases, like the woman at Liz’s table. I wonder whether biases against race and gender are largely left unsaid. And last, I wonder that, with secret ballots, why people say for whom they voted or will vote. Why don’t we tell pollsters to take a hike? With a primary today in my state, I’m sosososo tired of people telling me the results of the election. Bella Mia, I took Angela Davis’ Marxist Philosophy class at UCLA, and can say with some authority that Senator Obama is not a Marxist. The name calling and tirades are SUCH a bore.
By K O on 05/20/2008 12:49 pm
Elizabeth Bennett
Not to diminish the sexism of the sentiment, but the two idiots with the Iron my Shirt banner were promoting some sort of radio station. Backwards advertising, I suppose, but stunts are stunts. I stopped responding to pollsters a while back. They just became too greedy for my time. I agree that Obama is not a Marxist. What a silly accusation. Sometimes I think people do not know what Marxist is at all.
By Elizabeth Bennett on 05/20/2008 4:45 pm
Mugsy Peabody
Kitty, I think that most “-ist” attitudes are coded in the language, which is why I jump on these things. But further, I believe that they are largely unexamined. The same people who would say they wouldn’t mind blacks living next door would go ballistic if a gay couple moved in. And living in San Francisco Bay Area, I’ve seen more Asian/Black race hatred expressed than actual white/black race hatred. I’m of course the last of the die-hard idealists, so I’m appalled by all of it. Dr. Davis? Good for you, she’s brilliant. I thought the world was totally upside down in the ’70s in when Dr. Davis was in prision and Ronald Reagan was governor of California. As you can see coded in my language, I have a prejudice against voting for people who are dumb as a post (“Seen one redwood tree, you’ve seen ‘em all,” etc….) because they are charming movie stars. Obviously nothing much has changed….
By Mugsy Peabody on 05/20/2008 7:18 pm
Frank Peterson
Just goes to show you, there are racist assholes everywhere.
By Frank Peterson on 05/20/2008 12:50 pm
Willow K
DeAnne said “Let’s be real here - I think anyone would be lying if having a person of color in the race hasn’t phased them in the least. ” Well DeAnne, it hasn’t phased me at all, at least in a cautionary way, which is what I think you intended to say. I think its exciting and time for skin color or gender to give way to the best person and policies to prevail. I won’t vote for Hillary because she’s a woman, or for Obama because he’s black, but the fact that they are a woman and black, respectively, does not negatively impact my preferences.
By Willow K on 05/20/2008 12:54 pm
DeAnne from Big D
I was just reflecting on how racism is taught - one need only watch a Jerry Springer episode with a mom proudly sitting on stage with her baby dressed up in a little KKK outfit. :( I love telling this story: When my little girl was around 5 or so, she played quite a bit with a beautiful black girl in our neighborhood. They had alot of fun together. One day, Jessica walked into the house after a full afternoon of play and said, “Mom, I really like Faith.” I said, “I am glad you do, she is a sweet girl.” Then she nonchalantly said, “Mom, you know what? I think Faith is Chinese or something.” And then scurried off to her room not giving it another thought. Of course, we talked openly about what race she is - as well as our own race which is Polish and every other over time… We all need to be careful of what we hand down to the next generation…
By DeAnne from Big D on 05/20/2008 12:55 pm
Lady Gator
You didn’t really watch a Jerry Springer Show did you? Good heavens woman everyone knows he preys on the Trailer Trash of Society.
By Lady Gator on 05/20/2008 1:19 pm
DeAnne from Big D
No I didn’t!
By DeAnne from Big D on 05/20/2008 1:24 pm
mary lou s
hey, lady gator, did you ever have friends who couldn’t afford a regular house? calling them “trailer trash” doesn’t help anybody or anything. my neighbor tapes the daily show and colbert report on her vcr, and when i go to play the recording, sometimes jerry springer is on the aux channel. i’m glad i don’t have to see more than a snippet of it at any particular time.
By mary lou s on 05/21/2008 12:43 pm
Lady Gator
Mary Lou S. ….I’ve thought long and hard about your accusation that I didn’t know people who couldn’t afford a regular house. When my husband graduated from the Naval Academy — and, by the way, contrary to the belief of some — some of these men were not wealthy — on the contrary — most are on scholarship/an or appointment from a Senator from their state. So, when we went to our first assignment there was no base housing available — no apartments we could afford — so we, along with my husband’s roommate from Annapolis (a wonderful black man and his wife) decided we would rent trailers until we could find an apartment within our financial range. Living down the road from us were several families with several small children. Their use of the word N——r was rampant. They EVEN had a dog they called N——r. The T-shirts they wore had sayings on them worse than KKK. Each evening when the guys came home the kids would stand in the road and give our black friend the ONE FINGER SALUTE”. They never used a garbage can… always threw their trash in his yard. Therefore, I can safely call them “Trailer Trash” if I so desire. The parents of these children certainly set a terrible example for their children. Thank heavens we were able to find appropriate housing within 6 months. I am not trying to demean all people who live in a trailer park. My own father lived in a senior citizen “manufactured home” (does that sound better?) after he retired to the Florida Keys. He lived there until a Hurricane destroyed his home. He loved it there. However, this was not the same situation we endured many years before. Jerry Springer exploits all of the people on his show. And, from some of the trash I see him bring on his shows — they definitely remind me of a very scary, messy, racist group of individuals. I sometimes think he’s a racist or a biggot for taking advantage of the people he brings on his shows. Even a snippet of his show is disgusting.
By Lady Gator on 05/22/2008 1:48 pm