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Conversation | 05/20/2008 10:29 am

At a Table in So-Called Liberal NYC, Woman Announces: I’ll Never Vote for a Black Man for President

© AP

Editor’s Note: Featuring Kathleen Jamieson, director of the Annenberg Public Policy Center, a professor of communications and the former dean of the Annenberg School for Communication at the University of Pennsylvania.

LESLEY: So I’m so glad that you all could join us today. Liz Smith, obviously we know who Liz Smith is; Kathleen Hall Jamieson, Director of the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania and an expert on campaigns; and we are blessed with Candice Bergen. Let’s get started right off the bat, discussing the topic du jour, the campaign. Actually it’s the topic of every day. But let’s talk about the three “isms”: racism, sexism and ageism, starting with racism. Here’s my question: It has for long, I think, been that racism is a hidden issue. If voters made decisions because of race, they often lied to pollsters. It was kind of shameful. Do any of you get the feeling that that is changing, ever since the Rev. Wright issue exploded? Do you have a feeling that people are more willing to openly admit that they won’t vote for Obama because of race? Kathleen, are you picking up any of this?

Click here to read Part Two: Percentage of Voters Say They Would Never Vote for a Woman, Regardless of Qualifications.

Click here to read Part Three: Who Says Older Ages Equal Serious Health Problems?

KATHLEEN: Well, we’re seeing it in surveys. We’re seeing a percent of the population that doesn’t say it wouldn’t, but does say it would be less likely, or that race is a factor in vote. And then when you parse the question by saying, “Is race increasing or decreasing the likelihood of your vote?” what you actually see is, it’s increasing likelihood for some and decreasing likelihood for others. And then you have to ask, “And then what do those two things mean and how do we parse all that back into our history?”

LESLEY: But are people more willing to admit this than ever before? Or is it just a feeling one gets?

KATHLEEN: I don’t think we know whether they’re more willing because, in the past, we haven’t framed the question that way. And so I think it’s a great question and I don’t think we have an answer.

LIZ: If you look at The New York Times from Monday, it looks like America has racism pretty much under control when Obama can draw 75,000 people to a rally in Oregon. That’s just an incredible picture. The enthusiasm for that is incredible. Of course … that means nothing.

LESLEY: Liz, you and I went to a very fancy-schmancy dinner party in New York the other night. And a woman at our table, in so-called liberal New York City, announced to our table that she would never vote for a black to be in the White House. That’s what she said. And everybody else at the table was shocked and started to yell at her. But she felt perfectly comfortable saying that.

LIZ: Well, I was just glad nobody overturned the table …

LESLEY: Well, they wanted to. But the point is … I hear it more. That’s why I’m asking this question.

KATHLEEN: Lesley, when you hear it, do people then give you some reason? It seems to me that saying that should be unacceptable unless one has a reason. And I can’t think of a reason that could legitimize that conclusion.

LESLEY: What I was wondering is, does that mean that the Rev. Wright issue changed peoples’ attitudes in a way that it’s no longer as shameful for some people?

LIZ: Yeah, that’s a very good point, Lesley. I think that’s true. But, honestly, this woman the other night that you refer to at our dinner, that is the first overt thing I’ve ever had anybody say in my presence in – honestly — in years. So maybe today people are more politically correct; but privately they may be something else.

182 Reader Comments (so far…) Sign In or Register to comment

Maurine H
Caroline, I think you are a very wise woman.
By Maurine H on 05/21/2008 12:36 am
Patricia Burstein
Bigotry knows no geography.
By Patricia Burstein on 05/20/2008 2:00 pm
immoddesta godessa
Bigotry knows the crevices that we least suspect though! Recall the Don Imus dust up? That expression was foreign to me then, but haven grown up in Spokane Wash., I was surrounded by the sort of subtle isms that are thematic in this race and our culture at large. I was completely shocked when I was cut off in traffic by a black woman driving her mid 80’s, marginallly maintained, american sedan. The shock was not that she cut me off, but the facility with whhich my own mouth uttered the Imus degradation! I was shocked, apalled, ashamed, and instantly aware that the imprinting of the 24hr news loop has an impact on our historical imprinting that is quite agregious! I was later interested to wonder if [for instance] Mike huckabee’s comment about pointing a gun at Barack will facilitate some simpleton to respond to the imprinting of his youth! When Rush Limpbaugh suggests that assasination could take place! What controls the message! Do not blame the messenger!!! they say yet I’m convinced that many of the messengers onour public airwaves are well practiced and intentional! Limpbaugh speaking of ” operation chaos ” whereby ‘publicans cross over and support hillary, simply to frig with the riggin. perhaps I’ve digressed into deeper themes, but my very own response to the race of a motorist, vile and unanticipated, informed me of the very basics of human nature! Lessons learned early are lessons that even intentional unlearning may not completely overcome!
By immoddesta godessa on 05/20/2008 2:44 pm
Patricia Burstein
Immoddesta: The point you make about bigotry knowing crevices that we least suspect is very well said. Your honesty is commendable.
By Patricia Burstein on 05/20/2008 4:53 pm
Patricia Burstein
I first experienced bigotry at a summer camp where the kids would chant “Roses are red, violets are blue, whatever you do, don’t marry a Jew.” Our parents immediately took my sisters and me out of that camp. Another time, our parents refused to send our brothers back to a camp they liked after the owners refused to accept the two black sons of a friend ( one of the first black women, by the way, to graduate from Columbia Law School) from the Virgin Islands. At the risk of sounding “fancy schmancy,” I was imprinted with a love for black people by the loving touch of my baby nurse, Ms. Minnie Young Johnson, and those other truly wonderful people—Mr. James Speller, Ms. Elizabeth Griffin and Ms. Vera Irving—who followed in the life of my family. I mention their names because this is just one more way to ANNOUNCE to the world that they existed and they mattered! And, I say all of the above, admitting that those days of live-in people from the South were a bit “feudal,” but we did out best on both ends by being civil and respectful and loving. Ms. Minnie Young Johnson, who stayed on to look after siblings who came later, was one of the finest human beings I have known in my life. To this day her daughter and grandchildren, all immensely successful as both professionals and human beings, are very close friends. In Ms. Johnson’s scrapbook, ALL of our pictures are there, sharing equal space. I left journalism for several years recently to teach English, as a New York City Fellow, to high school students from disadvantaged backgrounds, burdened by broken families and economic duress. Many of them were as intuitively bright and gifted as any children of privilege. It was my way of paying tribute to Ms. Minnie Johnson: I was looking after children of single mothers just as she had done for me and my siblings. For all of the above reasons I found it repulsive that Lesley and the others at the “fancy schmancy” dinner party never spoke up, then and there. Their report was just drivel and dreck.
By Patricia Burstein on 05/21/2008 7:44 pm
Patricia Burstein
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men (and women) to do nothing.”attributed to Edmund Burke. By the way, does anyone know where this quote comes from?
By Patricia Burstein on 05/21/2008 8:08 pm
Mugsy Peabody
The normal curve is in place in all times and on all issues. The law enforcement in Texas set up loud speakers and played the Tibetan monks chanting to drive the people out of the Waco compound because they thought it was the ugliest noise they had ever heard. Yet millions across the globe walk miles and miles or pay big bucks to hear this same sound, which they (and I) consider holy. There is always something one can say. No friend or relationship can possibly be more important than the principle of equality. The constitution should be amended, yes, to replace all “men” to all “people.” My friend Joanne and I had coffee each morning at Peets on Piedmont in Oakland, pepper and salt, old friends. Shortly after Joanne died, I saw a person in Peets who had known me in San Francisco, and she said, “Oh, do you STILL live in Oakland?” “Yes,” I said. “Oh, I’m really surprised that you still live over here.” “What do you mean?” “Well, you know…. Oakland.” By this time, my neighbors, reading their papers, were listening. I am sure to this day it was Joanne speaking, but I simply said, “Oh, I think there’s been some kind of mistake.” “What do you mean.” “Oh, after all these years, didn’t you realize I’m black?” She literally backed out of the coffee shop, and my friends and neighbors gave me a round of laughter and applause. We know when “it,” i.e., hatespeak, is being said. We just need to stay no. No no no no no. “You don’t get to do that with me,” or “You don’t get to do that here” are both good generics for when you can’t imagine what to say.
By Mugsy Peabody on 05/20/2008 2:26 pm
Deni G
Mugsy~ “The constitution should be amended, yes, to replace all “men” to all “people.” I think we could amend it to replace all “men” with all “women” for about a couple of hundred years. You know, just to balance things out. By all “women”, we will of course, mean everybody, all women and all men. But that goes without saying…
By Deni G on 05/20/2008 2:45 pm
Mugsy Peabody
He he he he he…
By Mugsy Peabody on 05/20/2008 3:08 pm
Mugsy Peabody
Oh, ‘scuse me, I should have said, “she she she she she she….”
By Mugsy Peabody on 05/20/2008 3:10 pm
Deni G
Oh NOOOO! I just now got this! ROTFLMAO!
By Deni G on 05/21/2008 6:02 pm
~ countrywoman ~
Hey Mugsy (5/20/2008 2:26 PM) I was trying to read all the posts before deciding whether or not to add 1 or 2 cents-worth, but I must stop here and thank you for sharing that story with us. BRAVO!! When I have found myself in such situations I’ve often felt so stunned by the innuendo that my brain freezes. I don’t trust myself to respond in the moment, yet I know very well that those who use this smug technique will read silence as approval/agreement. OH, how I would have loved to witness that exposed and deflated reverse exit!! Your story was the next best thing to being there, and I shall reflect upon it for inspiration in the future.
By ~ countrywoman ~ on 05/20/2008 7:33 pm
Mugsy Peabody
And of course it was having friends like Joanne who would bust my chops when I needed to grow through something that made me the person who could show up for that day. There have been times when I didn’t, and I always remember them with embarrassment.
By Mugsy Peabody on 05/20/2008 8:19 pm
~ countrywoman ~
Mugsy…..hooray for good friends and kind strangers!
By ~ countrywoman ~ on 05/20/2008 8:34 pm
Dona Howlett
Mugsy, Your response in the coffee shop reminded me of an event that happened some years ago while I was on vacation. A group of people were sitting around a Pic Nic table at a bar-b-que. One of the men made a derogatory remark about (black) people……although he used the N word. I was furious. But I tried to keep my cool and said to him. Oh! I’m sure my 10 year old grandson would be delighted to hear that….I will remember to never bring him around you. (I have a grandson who is 1/4 black)…….People can be so stupid. Within seconds he and his group got up and left the table. My husband and I almost shouted Hoo Rah!!!!!!! We always stayed at the same RV park every summer for three weeks.. They never spoke to us again.
By Dona Howlett on 05/21/2008 1:44 am