Conversation | 04/09/2008 12:00 am

What Happens to Us After We Die?

With Julia Reed, Lily Tomlin and Sheila Nevins

JULIA: Oh, absolutely. I was raised … my mother was the first female elder in the Presbyterian church in Greenville, Mississippi, and I … I’m probably not as strict as Bill Buckley was, but I still hold onto that. For a long time I think I was embarrassed to say it, especially when I first became a grown-up and was living in Washington and New York. And going out to dinner almost weekly, with people like Christopher Hitchens. So, it was best just not to bring it up. And I still think that religion is not a topic you can discuss at the dinner table. But, yeah, I mean, in addition to the fact that I definitely think like Lily, my body will rot in the ground. Hopefully the rest of me will go on to the great hereafter.

LILY: But do you really believe in the dead being regenerated or being risen in any way?

JULIA: I do believe that – just like what most Protestants and Catholics believe – that your spirit goes on somewhere else.

JONI: Can I make a differentiation between religion and spiritualism, that we’re talking …

LILY: Not religion. We’re talking about the spiritual life.

JONI: … about the spirit and what happens to the soul once we die? I can’t pronounce the name of that man, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, who said, “We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience.”

SHEILA: Oh, that’s good. I like that.

LILY: Well, I’d like to think that somehow there is some other world, some spiritual world. But when you think about parallel universes and so many … all these spirits would be bumping, so massively, bumping into each other.

SHEILA: And wouldn’t it be very crowded?

LILY: And reincarnation. That eludes me, too. I think, you know, because if you come back as a lower form, or a higher form … I mean, are a lot of insects, are they people coming back paying off all their debts? You think you could calculate all this just by numbers. Like how many beings have been on the earth … if all these beings are coming back as humans, in human form, and then you have millions and billions of insects and other extremely low –

SHEILA: And dogs. Dogs and cats and elephants and tigers.

JONI: Sheila, tell me what you think.

SHEILA: I think that religion simply keeps people from being frightened from dying. I think it’s a great fairy tale. It’s been invented from the most primitive of times and I don’t believe – and I can’t believe, I tried so hard to – but I just can’t identify with believing that there’s anything but this miracle of living, and that we just die and then we become part of the earth and then we regenerate and there’s just a whole cycle of life that keeps going and –

LILY: And think of the universe as one big organism. We’re all just part of the same immense, infinite organism and we’re just one little cell, or one little atom that goes into another manifestation.

JULIA: Well, I believe slightly differently from you guys, obviously, and that’s because I’m coming from another place. But I have to laugh because, well, what Sheila said. Because there’s a lot of truth that whether you believe – whether you have faith in the afterlife, or in God or not, you have to laugh and think that religion is … you know, a lot of people who say they’re believers are believers for exactly what she was saying.

In the paper recently in New Orleans – I don’t know how many of you have heard of or have eaten at Popeyes Fried Chicken. But anyway, the guy who was the Popeyes Fried Chicken magnate was from here and his name was Al Copeland and he died this week. And he was just a real bad ass and he had about four or five wives, about 38 cars and speedboats, which he had all hauled into the cemetery where he was buried.

But the Catholic – I don’t know what the heck they call themselves in the Catholic Church, which is why I’m probably going to get in trouble, but the monsignor or somebody who was leading the service was describing how he had taken Mr. Copeland – who had this really rare form of cancer – he’d taken this poor man, on his, like, last month or so before he keeled over, on this major Catholic trek. You know, they had an audience at the Vatican; they went to Lourdes, blah, blah, blah. And I just started thinking about how many checks this poor bastard was writing to buy his salvation, which he had never expressed much interest in until this final thing.

And then the guy was quoted in the paper as saying, “Mr. Copeland realized at last that the Catholic Church was the one true road to heaven.”

SHEILA: Well, because he probably had a deathbed confession, right?

JULIA: Well, no. As I said, I think he was paying a lot of money for this death tour that the –

LILY: Yeah, to get OK with the Lord. My father –

JULIA: He had about two weeks to go and, by God, he made every stop he could on the European death tour.

JONI: I just want to bring into this conversation that I totally believe in the afterlife. I’ve had experiences of the afterlife. I mean, I could spend hours and days and months. I have had evidence after evidence of my own deceased parents trying to reach me, and reaching me. I’ve seen things physically change. I have had –

SHEILA: Do things physically change? Like what? With or without a face lift?

JONI: It’s too long for me even to begin, except to say that I’d love one day to tell you all.

LILY: Oh, we’d like to hear them because –

JONI: All right. I will tell you all about things that happened. But it wasn’t until I was 50 years old. I’m Jewish. I never went to any kind of temple, or my parents didn’t believe in anything. In fact, if somebody ever asked me, “What sign are you?” – the horoscope – I’d go, “Please, give me a break.” But when I was 50, I was visited by a psychic who wanted to write a book, and from the very first moment I met her she said, “Well, there’s a man standing by your shoulder and he’s been waiting to talk to you forever.” And she gave me one hour of evidence of specifics, to the point of what was in my pocketbook, to the point of when I went fishing in 1948 and caught a —

JULIA: Say, what’s this psychic’s name? Stop right here. I want to know.

JONI: Oh, her name was Rosemary Altea and she’s written two or three bestsellers. The Eagle and the Rose was one. But from there the journey went on, actually alone. I’ve had … I know you’ll all think I’m crazy, but remember, I’ve had responsible jobs, a responsible life.

JULIA: We don’t think you’re crazy.

JONI: And I know … I know that we live on. I know that the things you’re worrying about, we’re seeing from a human eye. The universe is vast and it won’t be crowded and I’ve asked all the questions you’re raising and some day we’ll do a seminar on this. Trust me, we live forever.

SHEILA: You mean, you think your mother and your father are like sitting somewhere playing cards?

JONI: Yep. Yep, yep, yep. They are.

SHEILA: And, isn’t it, what Lily said before, isn’t it crowded where they’re sitting?

JONI: No. It is not at all.

SHEILA: And you’re going to be sitting enjoying them?

JULIA: I think we have … I mean, I think it’s like a kid imagining Santa Claus. You’ve got to let go of what we think of as like time and space and form, if you’re –

SHEILA: Oh, but keep holding on to form, Julia.

Read more about: Death, Lou Dobbs, Religion, Rosemary Altea

357 Reader Comments (so far…) Sign In or Register to comment

I was born and raised as a Presbyterian. My teachings were that a person is saved once they are born. Even though I asked a lot of questions though my many years, I have always had a hard time understanding the book of Revelation in the Bible. Why would the Lord come back and do so many horrible things to people. But I finally read the Left Behind series by Jerry Jenkins and Tim LaHaye. For once I understand better. Now I think of Christians who die, as “saved” persons and their spirits are a big part of the army which rides behind God during his battle with the antichrist. These spirits will live in the glorious perfect kingdom God sets up on earth after the devastation of the tribulation. Although spirits and ghosts and such were not a part of the beliefs taught in my religous upbringing, I still believe that some spirits have a hard time crossing over. During my life, I have had a least two experiences in my own home with someone’s spirit being around and actually doing things and making things happen.

By doll lady on 04/09/2008 6:18 am

e-mail alert

This to me is a very interesting conversation. I was raised in a family where religious holidays were celebrated in a secular fashion, though as children we were exposed to different religious perspectives. As a teenager, I felt considerable peer pressure to declare some type of religious affiliation. I ambiguously declared to be agnostic until I took a course in Physics in college. Realizing that humans, and animals for that matter, are but specks on a spinning marble in space, I could no longer think in pure agnostic terms. As an adult I get great comfort in the idea that my body will be recycled back to nature in one form or another. As far as a belief in a spirit life, I just can’t buy into it. And I can’t buy into the idea that if a person does great, selfless things in life, but is an atheist, that they will somehow be punished in an afterlife.

By L H on 04/09/2008 1:18 pm

e-mail alert

LH said: “Realizing that humans, and animals for that matter, are but specks on a spinning marble in space, I could no longer think in pure agnostic terms. As an adult I get great comfort in the idea that my body will be recycled back to nature in one form or another.” I completely agree with this. I find a belief that there is another plane of existence to be muddled thinking that keeps one from truly enjoying and experiencing the life we have here to its fullest extent. That always saddens me!

By MT C-Douglas on 04/09/2008 3:12 pm

e-mail alert

I’m a little disturbed that you have based your own salvation on a series of books that are NOT biblically founded. I have searched the bible through and through and have NEVER been able to find evidence supporting a rapture. I believe that when we die, we are dead. In Eccl. 9:5 we are told that “the dead know nothing”. If our souls go to heaven after we die, are we stupid, mindless beings? Jesus refers to death as a “sleep” in John 11:11-14 and the bible refers to death as a sleep over 50 times! In Genesis we are told that we are made of dust and dust we will become again. In Eccl. 12:7 we are told that the spirit returns to God. When I read this I assumed that it was telling me that when I die, my body stays on earth and my spirit or my soul goes up to heaven, or to hell, whichever the case would be. But then as I studied further, Job answered my question for me. He says in chapter 27 verse 3 that the spirit is the same as God’s breath of life or his power. David clears this up even better by saying that when the breath or spirit returns to God, the thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:3,4). And then there is the matter of the reserection. If we’ve been living in heaven as celestual beings, why would we come back here to earth to recieve are broken down bodies. It just doesn’t make any sense. Paul wrote in Romans that the wages of sin is death BUT the gift of God is eternal life. Finally, in Revelation, John tells us that when Jesus comes again in the second coming that he will bring His gift of eternal life WITH him. I took this to mean that we have not already recieved this gift. I apologize for “preaching” but I do hope that I have helped you with some of your questions, or at least given some helpful texts to read and something to think about. :)

By Cassie Stokes on 04/09/2008 1:34 pm

e-mail alert

WHAT HAPPENS AFTER WE DIE? I am too busy living according to a line I have taped on my fridge….”You only live once, but once is enough if you do it right”…to think very much about that. I am trying to live my own small life as best I can and will, hopefully, continue to be grateful for that experience to the end.

By MARIE HIGGINS on 04/09/2008 1:50 pm

e-mail alert

My late husband’s oncologist had a similar saying pinned to the wall in the chemo room. It said, “Live! This is not a rehearsal!” I liked that.

By Hedda Lettuce on 04/09/2008 8:40 pm

e-mail alert

Wow, I like that! Live! This is not a rehearsal! says it all for me! I’m waiting for StemCell therapy to keep me going for a century or more. My motto is - I will live forever, or die trying! Thanks Charlie Rose for pointing me to this site; it’s great.

By gilli3 from Victoria on 04/10/2008 1:30 pm

e-mail alert

Cassie, With all respect to your beliefs, your right to hold them (as many do) and express them, and having been raised a Catholic, attending Catholic schools and my son also attended Jesuit schools through graduate schools in the US and Europe…..I think most women would have a muc different perspective on life, the universe, and themselves if the read “The Chalice and The Blade” Riane Eisler. And understand the real history of patriarchal religion, what it has done, who wrote it, how spiritual beliefs create the world, etc. And also by reading “Goddesses in Every Woman” by Dr. Jean Bolen to understand archetypes—-the building blocks of the universe and what inherently inform much of our likes, dislikes, behavior. In fact, no woman is really educated or her true self until she understands these things.

By Buh-Bye Hillary Hillary Buh-Bye on 04/09/2008 6:51 pm

e-mail alert

Cassie, You are right, there is no rapture. This theory was founded by a mentally insane woman in 1830 by the name of Margaret McDonald. Who herself stated that she believed this to be evil, but the ministers at her bed side took the ball if you will and ran with this as a means to fill congregations by telling people that you don’t have to study the word of God because He’s going to fly us all out of here. This is the “Great Apostacy” of the end times. God is against this false teaching and clearly states his displeasure in Ezk Chp 13, I am against those who sew pillows over my outstreched hands and teach my children to fly away to save their souls! And you can bet that Satan will jump on the band wagon with that one. However your reference to “The dead know nothing” this is in reference to those that are spiritually dead, dont know the word of God, not physcially dead. When we die we instantly (Our spirit) returns instantly to the one who gives it, That means it goes right straight back to God. Aunt Millie is not laying in a hole in the ground some where, she has gone back to the creator God. The flesh body is the only thing that goes back to dust as our bodies are nothing more than organic material and a housing for our sprit man while we live in this dispensation of time. The only reason we don’t see God is the very fact that he is in a different dimension than we are. The spirit is the intellect of the soul and again that returns back to God. At present there is no Hell, God is a consumming fire and those who decide that they don’t want anything to do with God at the end of the Millinium, are cast into the lake of fire with satan, Notice that I said their decision, not God’s. It is not God’s will that any should perish, but there are those who will. Many people are scared off from God as they do not understand him, He is not looking to zap people he want’s our love, Hosea 6:6 I don’t want your burnt offerings, I want your love. Back to the hell issue this is one of the most troubling for people, as they think Uncle Charlie or Aunt rita is frying like a piece of bacon yellin and screaming their heads off all the while we are sitting around the camp fire…Good heavens, What kind of heaven would that be and common sense tells one that in heaven, God will wipe away all our tears and there is no more pain and sickness. So that would be crazy and more importantly not in line what so ever with the word of God. As far as the resurrection, There are 2 deaths, The first one being the physcial and the second one being spiritual. All those who have lived on the earth in a physcial body and believed that Jesus Christ died for our sins and resurrected on the third day and asscended to heaven and sits at the right hand of the father, and lived their life to the best of their ability in accordance to God’s word. dies they are automatically free from the second death which again is the death of the spirit. In other words they are home free and have put on an Immortal soul, meaning they will not partake of the second death. Now on the other hand those who pass away on this earth with no care or concern for our heavenly father, will in fact put on an mortal soul, meaning liable to die. They will have to go through the millinium period which will be a time of teaching and dicipline and at the end of that millinial period Satan will be let loose one final time,as this is a testing to decide which father they choose God or Satan. You see, God doesn’t want anyone who has not been proven and tested to show their love for him. He has feelings just like we do, He created us! We don’t want people that don’t take a stand for what is right in our lives either. God has those same feelings. Now here is the meat and potatoes of your post and one to which I hope I can clear up for you and trust me most people are completely unaware that we in fact used to live with God, Yes I said we use to live with God Untill the over throw of Satan and a third of the angles who rebeled against God and that all happened as a result of Satan who was appointed the most impressive duty one could be given in Heaven, and that was to guard the mercy seat but that wasn’t good enough for Ole Slew foot (another name for Satan) He wanted to be God, Henceforth the overthrow. It grieved God that he had made man in the flesh and why? Because he knew we would suffer various calamities as a result of these flesh bodies, but our purpose, rather God’s purpose was to give everyone a clean slate to start with by being born through the bag of waters of woman where all could make up their minds as to who they would love God or Satan. This is also a great misconception when people think they have to be born again. We are not born again but born from above. And again why? Because we were with our heavenly father in the begining when God said “Let us make man in our image. Well, who would he be talking about? us of course.As for the second advent (Return) of Jesus Christ, He is comming back here to establish his kingdom, which means he is King and his dominion. Heaven is where ever God is and the bible clearly states that he will set up his kingdom on Mt Zion his favorite place on all the earth. And this will be at the seventh trump, Satan shows up at the sisth trump claiming to be God but is a fake and the Bible clearly states that the whole world will whore after him thinking that he is the Christ. The only reason one would not think that we have the gift of eternal life yet is because technically we are not yet in that dispensation with God (The eternity) but yes, I know I have that gift, God promised that to me and anyone else who believes on his precious son Jesus Christ. The lord Jesus has not shown up yet to deliver his gift to us yet if you will. Don’t apologize for sharing about the word of God I just felt that there were somethings that you may have been uncertain about. For an excellent study of God’s word, I would highly recommend www.shepards chapel.com, He is an outstanding Bible scholar who takes you through the Bible chapter by chapter and verse by verse. Which I might add is the only way to study the Bible. God Bless you always :)

By HA BIBI on 08/26/2008 3:30 pm

e-mail alert

Beware of the Rapture …2 women at the Well ,one taken the other left ..Jesus says you better not ..HE says you better be here WORKING when HE returns ….no exceptions …no excuses …Working for GOD ..only .. I was raised Catholic .I didnt learn much ..The I was let down by a couple of Priests ..I asked questions as Jeus Christ said to do ..to test them … I asked who is Melchizdek …I already knew the answer …I was on my journey …And I leaned much …They did not know this answer …That I received from the Holy Spirit on night as I was reading .. I went to church and asked everyone …who is Melchizdek ? No One KNEW !! I was so so let down ..depressing ..so depressing ..All these years in the Catholic church and the Priest always says > after the Order of Melchizdek …breaking the Bread …and no one knows who these preist are talking about …for all they know they could be saying after the order of Satan …and they stil would argee with those priests ..Very disturbing to me …I stayed away except for Funnerals ..and after I felt guilty …I thought I had missed out on all those years …BUT I was studying …so I could be as smart as those people who went to church ..and the priest …What happened ? Were they all sleeping all those years I stayed away ? They even changed the Catholic Creed …Very confusing ..to me .. WHY? Well at that time I was experiencing this Clairvoyant thing …it was happening to me …Why at 40 ? maybe the first time I ever noticed ..I always thought I was nuts …TILL one night in Nov 2006 …I was watching this show called the Indigo and Star children …and these 2 women who used to do Wrigleys Gum commercials …They were doing the same things I was …and I really thought I needed meds ..TILL that night …Has anyone here seen that show ? I should of recorded it …I thought it would come on again as they do play shows over and over on Dish Network …they never did …and I have searched ..for this show …Because I need to talk with these 2 women ..I was doing and dreaming the same thing they were …I dreamt a American city was nuked and I predicted something very bad would happen ..and by who before 911 …Then wella that show …I saw I wasnt alone .Were am I going with this …Well all in the Bible it says before the End of Days Women and Men will dream dreams …and tell people like Prophets and I did a whole yr before 911 …every email i sent prior to 911 I wrote in the subject line …LOOK OUT AMERICA Osama bin Ladens coming …no one payed attention to me …TILL that day ….I dint know where or how I just knew this man was going to do something …He was on his way ..I have studied Revelation for 20+ yrs ..I knw GOD is on his way ..I can feel it in the air ..I can sense it in the VIBES in the world and also I believe the last Great Pope John Paul ..He said these are the End of Days …107xs …recorded in Books and also he called Bush anti-christ …not The anti-christ but antichirst …something to think about …

By Eliza Dodd on 10/20/2008 7:13 pm

e-mail alert

Interesting site … will be back! Just one thought about the death and dying conversation … we humans all make too much of it because of our finite nature. The worry about who goes to heaven and who doesn’t and what happens after you die isn’t really the issue; faith is the issue. When you believe in something eternal and know that you will be in heaven because you know God is real, it changes your perspective on the finite. This world looks completely different to me because of faith in Christ, who is eternal, from the beginning of time. I have hope. This is the message that can make a difference in someone’s life, in how they choose to live, in ultimately it not being about me aftter all, but about others. We could argue this point of view too … but in the end, we have to give up the argument and just trust, in this moment. Eternal faith is the one thing that has allowed me the freedom to do that. Even then it’s a struggle, for faith must be continuously renewed. But it is all there is in the end. It is what allows us to love unconditionally and forgive others. CT

By Cathy Townley on 04/10/2008 6:23 am

e-mail alert

Cathy, You can call it Christ, Love, God, Allah, the divine collective conscious. But all humans, and all cultures feel this tug of something. Religion means to ‘link back.’ The creation story and myths of cultures of all time—separated by geography, language, and centuries—and centuries earlier than the three religions that grew from the same Middle-East region at near the same time, came directly from the earlier—and wiser in my opinion—Goddess and polythesic cultures. There is no one true belief. There is the mono myth that is inborn in the ancient right brain, the side of our brains that crave and create and respond to music, dance, meditation, art, prayer, nature. That is the natural bridge to the spiritual realm. To control populations all despots eliminate arts funding, physical education, science, music, liberal arts, because these nurture the spiritual side, the free thinkers. Instead, they institutionalize rote learning and testing to change culture, and turn us into a bunch of left-brained unquestioning robotrons. Great for building armies and getting things done, not so great in producing humanists. I believe in the great scientist who were also great spiritualist and very learned and exceptional men and women. The incredible Jesuit, Teilhard de Chardin, as Joni mentioned. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin And Albert Einstein, Nobel Prize winning physcist and Time Magazine’s Man of the 20th century. He wanted the boundaries of science and religion to be dissolved. This is an immense and fascinating topic, but to go to how that will happen is to look at the unified field theory that Einstein spent the last 40 years of his life searching for, and which gave birth to today’s String Theory. String theory posits that the most irreducible matter, at the very core beneath the cells, protons, neurons, quarks is a vibrating string with a message that gives form to being. Universe means “One song.” Cosmos means “One unified united whole.” I think of it as what Mozart called “El Filo” the unifying string that runs through art to give it beauty and strength. Imagine these intelligent, vibrating strings inborn at our very core. Imprinted with our message, our story or song, and also encoded with the universal song. Like the opening notes on a lone violin at the start of a great orchestral piece. There is NO division between the physical and spiritual worlds. Everything is made of and exists in a web of electromagnetism—the strongest of the four physics forces. Everything is connected. The discovery and harnessing of electromagnetics changed culture. It fomented romantic music, poetry, impressionist art, transcendentalist thought in the US. We harness it for all our electronics. It is why your cells, WiFI, and blackberries work. We are electromagnetics. The instruments to test String theory haven’t even been developed yet. (a popular book on Sting Theory is “The Elegant Universe) but when they are they, and the unified field is proven beyond or more comprehensively than quantum physics and the riddle of the universe solved, and which could be in the next ten years, there will be a greater change in society than ever. THAT will be the enlightenment to end all. As Teilhard de Chardin said we are spirits in a temporary Earthy role, like Shakespeare said our loved ones have just slipped past the veil. The degree of the radiance, the enlightenment we create here in ourselves and in the world is the ‘being’ that we take into eternity. There is no angry male punishing god with a tote board awaiting our arrival. We are creating our own “spiritual street cred” everyday by the class of things we choose, and by the inhuman things we oppose. The commonality of all true spiritualists is grace and simplicity because they know the simultaneous truth of the divinity and frailty of man, and that the quality of your eternal being is the light achieved here. Fortunately for all of us imperfect humans there are many ways to achieve that.

By Buh-Bye Hillary Hillary Buh-Bye on 04/10/2008 4:50 pm