SHEILA: Are there things that the mature woman should or shouldn’t wear, do, speak? Is that still that case? Are there taboos?

JUDITH: Ah, apparently not because you see people in everything. I think they’re often unwise choices. But we have a whole fiction in this society that it’s terrible to get older, and so you try to disguise it in every way. And, of course, you usually make it worse. I’m thinking of language, for example, when typically somebody would be addressed as "Mrs." or "Ma’am" and get very indignant and say, “Oh, that makes me feel old.” Apparently with the idea that if they say that, people will think, “Oh, my mistake. You’re really very young.” And instead of thinking, “Oh, but you are old. Doesn’t she realize it?” So, I think aping the very young is a mistake, but I don’t know that it’s a rule. One is always taught, for instance, that you can’t have long hair —

SHEILA: Right, that’s the one.

JUDITH: — if you’re young. And I have very long hair. Now I wear it up, and I’m not going to go around with it streaming down my back, but I didn’t do that when I was a teenager, either. So I don’t think that it’s a question of the aesthetic rules, the aesthetic ideals of the society change. But if you adopt what is considered very young when you’ve obviously not, I think you’re going to look silly. You’re not going to fool anybody.

SHEILA: But I thought you can’t have long hair when you get older, you have to have short hair. I was sort of brought up with that notion that you wouldn’t have to wear it long. But I would love to have long hair. I’m old. I would love to have long hair. But I feel like it’s inappropriate.

JOAN: Well, wait a second. I have long hair for a very good reason. For years I had short hair because I thought I looked kind of great from the side with short hair, and it was sort of gamine and adorable. And then one day I saw a photograph of myself with short hair and I looked like somebody’s geography teacher. And I realized that as your face gets less appealing to the general population, it’s nice to be able to show them something pretty. So I have somebody who blows it out before I go out and no matter how tired my face looks, or what my expression is, this hair looks rather pretty and people get to look at something nice. And I think that’s a form of politeness.

SHEILA: So I can grow my hair?

JOAN: Yes.

SHEILA: Oh, there were rules when I grew up like you don’t wear white in the winter. You know that kind of thing? You can’t wear a white skirt.

JOAN: Long sleeves, I’d say, are a must.

SHEILA: It’s almost impossible to find —

JOAN: The brand-new dead chickens take up residence inside your arms.

SHEILA: They what? Say it again.

JOAN: Dead chickens – the inside of your arms suddenly harbor dead chickens, and you don’t want to show those dead chickens to anyone.

SHEILA: Well, everybody gets dead chickens, even if you’re thin.

JUDITH: Why is it almost impossible to find dresses that have long sleeves?

JOAN: Because the cheapest possible pattern to make is a sleeveless dress. Once more, we get back to greed. A sleeveless dress pattern doesn’t cost as much to make as one with set-in sleeves – which is the most complicated thing in tailoring.

JUDITH: I see.