Conversation | 07/18/2008 10:30 am

HBO Executive Producer Sheila Nevins on the Making of 'Heidi Fleiss: The Would-Be Madam of Crystal'

With Lily Tomlin, Liz Smith and Sheila Nevins

Editor’s Note: Demystifying the notorious “Hollywood Madam,” the exclusive HBO documentary, "Heidi Fleiss: The Would-Be Madam of Crystal," chronicles her ill-fated attempt to launch “Heidi’s Stud Farm” when it debuts Monday, July 21 (9 PM - 10:10 PM, ET/PT), exclusively on HBO. This film is part of the HBO Documentary Films summer series, which features a provocative new film every Monday night at 9PM through August 25.

LIZ: As the executive producer of world famous documentaries seen on HBO, why in the world did you choose a madam for your subject on television? And I am talking about Heidi Fleiss.

SHEILA: I had always been a fan of Nick Broomfield’s documentary on Heidi, which is now about ten years old. But I always wondered what happened to Heidi and I decided to find out. So I tracked her down to a lingerie shop in downtown Hollywood and that’s where I met Heidi about two or two-and-a-half years ago. She was fascinating. I never met a creature like that before. I never met anybody who was so wicked and at the same time wise.

Click here for a sneak preview of "Heidi Fleiss: The Would-Be Madam of Crystal."

LIZ: Yeah.

Heidi really needs to be cured of her illness, because the rest of Heidi is magnificent. She’s a really nice human being.

SHEILA: I thought if you were a bad girl, you’re bad all over. And if you were a business woman or a smart girl, you were smart all over. And I had never seen a contrast like Heidi. There are so many facets of her character and I identified with her also as a woman. And I wanted to find out about her. I wanted to know where she was at.

LIZ: My very vague remembrance is that my heart sort of went out to her and I felt I was on her side. I’m not much for seeing people put in jail for prostitution. And then she would not reveal the names of the men in her little black book.

SHEILA: Never has. It’s a kind of prostitution McCarthyism in the sense that she wouldn’t give names. And won’t. And doesn’t.

LIZ: OK. So let’s establish for people who don’t know about Heidi Fleiss, that in 1993 she went to prison on charges of money laundering, tax evasion, drug possession. And they gave her a term of 37 months. Am I correct in that?

SHEILA: That’s correct. Of which she served three years.

LIZ: They didn’t specifically charge her with prostitution …

SHEILA: Right.

LIZ: … though prostitution is illegal in California, isn’t it?

SHEILA: Yes.

LIZ: But it’s not illegal in Nevada?

SHEILA: Nope.

LIZ: OK.

SHEILA: Which is where Heidi now lives. She lives in Nevada

LIZ: Sheila, let me just ask you a hypothetical. Why do they always punish prostitutes and they very seldom punish the johns, or the men, who are doing business with them, Mr. Ordinary Joe? And, except for the governor of New York State, Eliot Spitzer, who seems like he came off worse than the women accusing him, why do they do this? Why do men escape the opprobrium of prostitution, since men are the purchasers of prostitution?

SHEILA: I don’t really know why. My heart went out to her, like you said — that thing about your heart going out to Heidi. Yet she’s not bitter. She’s, unfortunately, drugged a lot of the time. She uses substances and she admits it in the film. And she really needs to be rehabilitated. But some of my best friends have that problem. I mean, there was Heidi the sober woman in a nice Armani suit talking about business and doing things; and then there was Heidi the drug addict. And then there was Heidi the environmentalist and the bird lover.

LILY: That whole bird metaphor was just so incredible.

LIZ: We need to explain the birds.

SHEILA: Go ahead and do it.

LIZ: Heidi moves to Nevada and she buys property next to a very old lady, who is described as a madam. And the old lady collects these rare, fabulous cockatoos and cockatiels and wonderful birds that talk. Heidi becomes involved with these birds and when the woman dies, she’s left the birds and she goes on to care for them in a really exaggerated, wonderful way. That’s what Lily means by the birds being a metaphor.

Read more about: Business, California, HBO, Heidi Fleiss, Nevada, Prostitution, Sex

145 Reader Comments (so far…) Sign In or Register to comment

And of course the real fundamental question is, who is raising our boys to think that they have every right to screw women, call us bitches and whores, and disrespect us? That is the key question. Our society arrests prostitutes but not customers. Why not? I mean, this is a key, fundamental feminist issue.

By Mugsy Peabody on 07/18/2008 11:15 pm

e-mail alert

Mugsy, It is hard to arrest the chief of police ain’t it?

By Blue Circle Girl on 07/18/2008 11:45 pm

e-mail alert

Mugsy, Wow! Great points! I posted some concerns I had about your insightful response re: “Who is raising these children, who feel they are faced with limited options?” Sadly, we all are having to be there for many children, who really are left to raise themselves. I’m teaching teachers about the issue that “We are the significant adults in children’s lives.” I use to ask, “Should we be the significant adults in children’s lives?” I love your question about what is normal. I think we all need to look inward and really give that one some thought. I coach for a living and one of my roles is to help clients find out who they are…great people…with incredible human potential hidden under cobwebs of limiting thoughts or self-scripted stories. I’m afraid this generation of children and GEN Y are facing the adult world with stories planted in their head that lead them to make choices to turn to substances, porn, food, business, whatever to cope with so many thoughts that cause them to suffer. I’m sure Ms. Weiss, like so many of us, has cluster after cluster of thoughts planted in her head that limited her true life destiny. She believes her own stories. As for raising boys, my sons are in their early 20’s. I have had “Socratic Conversations” with them where I questioned them to see if they processed all they had been taught about the value of women. I’m so blessed to have a great relationship with them. I certainly wasn’t the perfect Mom, but I agreed with Jackie Kennedy when she said being a mother was the most important job in the world. I think that a boys’ relationship with his Mother has a huge impact on the way he will view women in his adult life.

By Maryann Lowry on 07/19/2008 1:17 am

e-mail alert

Mugsy, I posted earlier, but it is on a later page. Heidi Fleiss’ father was a very well known and sought after pediatrician. His office was an old Victorian house. He encouraged vegetarianism and everything natural. He was opposed to antibiotics long before other pediatricians were. When you went to the office it was a very relaxed and open environment. Non-judgemental with not a lot of boundaries. Her mother worked there, was very pretty, and someone you would want take care of your children. I only went a couple of times, but my sister-in-law took her three children there as well.

By Frannie Em on 07/19/2008 1:38 am

e-mail alert

Mugsy, I haven’t raised my boys that way, but they get it from popular culture.

By Frannie Em on 07/19/2008 1:52 am

e-mail alert

Her father was a well-known pediatrician. When Heidi was arrested, he was arrested for money laundering in connection with her business. I see Heidi as a servant of patriarchy, not any kind of rebel.

By Elizabeth Bennett on 07/19/2008 1:52 am

e-mail alert

Elizabeth I don’t know all the details, but I think it had to do with him lending her money, or a mortgage on a house or something ( don’t quote me, it has been a long time), but I think he was cleared because he proved he wasn’t involved with the rest. Trust me, he didn’t have anything to do with it.

By Frannie Em on 07/19/2008 5:00 pm

e-mail alert

Well he was convicted and served one day in prison and three years probation, which is a sentence that recognizes whatever wrong he did was out of blind love for his daughter rather than some effort to commit a crime. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidi_Fleiss http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE0DE1531F931A25756C0A… I am sure he was a wonderful pediatrician.

By Elizabeth Bennett on 07/19/2008 9:34 pm

e-mail alert

Elizabeth Thanks for the links. Insightful. I don’t know if it was blind love, or stupidity. Beats me, don’t know him that much, but seems like he got sucked in somehow. I don’t know if your last line is sarcasm, but it is wasted on me. Otherwise, thanks.

By Frannie Em on 07/20/2008 3:02 am

e-mail alert

It was not at all sarcasm. It was simply that it was such a tragedy that he did get sucked in, as from all reports he was a terrific doctor. When I am sarcastic, it is not hard to tell.

By Elizabeth Bennett on 07/20/2008 2:26 pm

e-mail alert

Thanks Elizabeth, I think you are right.

By Frannie Em on 07/20/2008 5:52 pm

e-mail alert

I think there is something that has been left out of the above conversation - Heidi Fleiss didn’t give up the men, but she gave up a lot of the women, even before she was arrested. Just wondering if their accounts were considered. The men had the money if she wanted to start back up again, but she let a lot of her working girls, get chewed up under the tires.

By Frannie Em on 07/19/2008 1:31 am

e-mail alert

The psychological damage of prostitution to the women involved cannot be underestimated. It is huge. See http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/48311 which describes it as “paid rape.”

By Elizabeth Bennett on 07/19/2008 1:49 am

e-mail alert

Elizabeth I had a friend that was a prostitute. As someone, I think it was Kelly mentioned, that drugs play a big part in the problem. She had cleaned herself up, but maintained her ‘boyfriends’. They had a schedule, and she kept them on that schedule, until she decided not to do it anymore. She was in her 40’s, she impersonalized the act and looked on it as business. She was very picky about her boyfriends, and didn’t have problems with them. She was not an expensive date, so to speak. When she would talk about her struggles, it was never about the prostitution, it was about the drugs and alcohol. So, when I say that I think it should be legalized, it is because many women do it by choice. I believe protecting our your girls and women and teaching them the standards and methods to develop their own self respect that is where we need to go. I was raised that way, and Mugsy is so correct in asking what and why - essentially- is it that makes young women choose it today? Many of them don’t have to. Don’t we value education as much? Has the sex trade gotten that large? I am asking the practical questions, Mugsy is asking the emotional questions, but both of them need to be answered. Personally, I believe Ms Fleiss was spoiled and enabled by a mother and father that didn’t know how to deal with it. She seemed determined to do things her way and to get what she wanted. One of my foster sister’s mother was a prostitute. Her pimp lived with her, she had 6 children. This girls was the oldest daughter and many parties would end up at their house, and she ended up raped at 14, then ended up in foster homes, she was excitable so they drugged her and tied her on a chair. She got loose and ran away to our house because my younger sister knew her from school. My mother had to work hard with her to get her back on track. She also worked with the mother who was very bright. My mother used to always say, if you would get your self some education in a field you like, you would be very successful. Lo and behold, after a couple of years, she got tired of johns, went to Real Estate School, and became the first woman back then, to sell over $5 million in Real Estate. No kidding. Then her son got involved and they make a ton. My foster sister went to college, majored in theater and then did commercials and moved to Canada with her husband and has beautiful children. She was a very strong girl and then woman. Prostitution is not a career I would want anyone to go into. What is it going to take to get people to stop?

By Frannie Em on 07/20/2008 6:13 pm

e-mail alert

It’s the oldest story in the world, and I think it has been glorified in the media. There are a number of problems with prostitution including viral and bacterial incurable diseases by the dozens. 1) Does weekly testing of prostitutes reassure any person with an understanding of infectious diseases? I don’t think sex was designed to be “safe” but instead, it is sticky, messy, and invasive. Giving the illusion of safety only increases the risk the john is willing to take. It’s called risk homeostasis. 2) Consider the opportunity costs for those men using prostitutes, especially married men or fathers: what else could they be doing with their money? Paying down credit card debt? Paying child support? Buying their wives something for themselves or the household? Paying the mortgage? Prostitution is a product of male narcissism at it’s worst and most expensive. 3) Consider the opportunity cost to the prostitute: What other activity or area is she forsaking in order to do this? What woman or man, father or mother would ever condone their daughter doing this kind of work? How would you feel about your son dating someone who is putting herself through college working as a prostitute? 4) Consider the Peter Pan men that choose to never grow up because they can pick the low hanging fruit of a prostitute. It is natural to lose the intensity of a sexual relationship over time, but mature, intelligent people can learn to recreate it. A visit to a prostitute is a “socially artificial high” that deprives the real partner of that time and that opportunity for intimacy. Who would feel proud of their single son who regularly visits prostitutes? It is not the sign of a healthy, well-rounded person looking for a stable committed relationship. 5) The more it is “normalized” through legalization, the greater acceptance it gains, and the greater the amount of illegal “street sex.” Legalized prostitution is also correlated with higher divorce rates in the community. Is that a surprise to anyone? My dear friend’s marriage broke up over her husband’s prostitute and pornography habit. He was college educated, and tried to take precautions, yet they both ended up with a sexually transmitted disease 9 years into their marriage because of his behaviors. Luckily it was treatable with antibiotics. He used money they couldn’t afford behind her back, because, of course, he didn’t discuss his expenditures with her. It was a nightmare for everyone. It is not unreasonable for the community to expect men to grow up, and learn to find sexual fulfillment inside their committed relationships. Sex is not only a pleasurable act, but for women, also a bonding act due to the hormone oxytocin. Is the problem in our society too many committed men bonded to their partners, or too few? Prostitution, legal or otherwise, only ecxaserbates our society’s most difficult and intransigent social problems. Women and children are hurt the worst. Heidi was a cheater and scammer in the marketplace of love.

By Bella Mia on 07/18/2008 9:12 pm