Conversation | 07/18/2008 10:30 am

HBO Executive Producer Sheila Nevins on the Making of 'Heidi Fleiss: The Would-Be Madam of Crystal'

With Lily Tomlin, Liz Smith and Sheila Nevins

Editor’s Note: Demystifying the notorious “Hollywood Madam,” the exclusive HBO documentary, "Heidi Fleiss: The Would-Be Madam of Crystal," chronicles her ill-fated attempt to launch “Heidi’s Stud Farm” when it debuts Monday, July 21 (9 PM - 10:10 PM, ET/PT), exclusively on HBO. This film is part of the HBO Documentary Films summer series, which features a provocative new film every Monday night at 9PM through August 25.

LIZ: As the executive producer of world famous documentaries seen on HBO, why in the world did you choose a madam for your subject on television? And I am talking about Heidi Fleiss.

SHEILA: I had always been a fan of Nick Broomfield’s documentary on Heidi, which is now about ten years old. But I always wondered what happened to Heidi and I decided to find out. So I tracked her down to a lingerie shop in downtown Hollywood and that’s where I met Heidi about two or two-and-a-half years ago. She was fascinating. I never met a creature like that before. I never met anybody who was so wicked and at the same time wise.

Click here for a sneak preview of "Heidi Fleiss: The Would-Be Madam of Crystal."

LIZ: Yeah.

Heidi really needs to be cured of her illness, because the rest of Heidi is magnificent. She’s a really nice human being.

SHEILA: I thought if you were a bad girl, you’re bad all over. And if you were a business woman or a smart girl, you were smart all over. And I had never seen a contrast like Heidi. There are so many facets of her character and I identified with her also as a woman. And I wanted to find out about her. I wanted to know where she was at.

LIZ: My very vague remembrance is that my heart sort of went out to her and I felt I was on her side. I’m not much for seeing people put in jail for prostitution. And then she would not reveal the names of the men in her little black book.

SHEILA: Never has. It’s a kind of prostitution McCarthyism in the sense that she wouldn’t give names. And won’t. And doesn’t.

LIZ: OK. So let’s establish for people who don’t know about Heidi Fleiss, that in 1993 she went to prison on charges of money laundering, tax evasion, drug possession. And they gave her a term of 37 months. Am I correct in that?

SHEILA: That’s correct. Of which she served three years.

LIZ: They didn’t specifically charge her with prostitution …

SHEILA: Right.

LIZ: … though prostitution is illegal in California, isn’t it?

SHEILA: Yes.

LIZ: But it’s not illegal in Nevada?

SHEILA: Nope.

LIZ: OK.

SHEILA: Which is where Heidi now lives. She lives in Nevada

LIZ: Sheila, let me just ask you a hypothetical. Why do they always punish prostitutes and they very seldom punish the johns, or the men, who are doing business with them, Mr. Ordinary Joe? And, except for the governor of New York State, Eliot Spitzer, who seems like he came off worse than the women accusing him, why do they do this? Why do men escape the opprobrium of prostitution, since men are the purchasers of prostitution?

SHEILA: I don’t really know why. My heart went out to her, like you said — that thing about your heart going out to Heidi. Yet she’s not bitter. She’s, unfortunately, drugged a lot of the time. She uses substances and she admits it in the film. And she really needs to be rehabilitated. But some of my best friends have that problem. I mean, there was Heidi the sober woman in a nice Armani suit talking about business and doing things; and then there was Heidi the drug addict. And then there was Heidi the environmentalist and the bird lover.

LILY: That whole bird metaphor was just so incredible.

LIZ: We need to explain the birds.

SHEILA: Go ahead and do it.

LIZ: Heidi moves to Nevada and she buys property next to a very old lady, who is described as a madam. And the old lady collects these rare, fabulous cockatoos and cockatiels and wonderful birds that talk. Heidi becomes involved with these birds and when the woman dies, she’s left the birds and she goes on to care for them in a really exaggerated, wonderful way. That’s what Lily means by the birds being a metaphor.

Read more about: Business, California, HBO, Heidi Fleiss, Nevada, Prostitution, Sex

145 Reader Comments (so far…) Sign In or Register to comment

Ugh! Heidi Fleiss? I fail to understand the facination, why people keep writing about this total bi*ch! Surely, there is someone else more worthy of the media attention……

By Beachlady ydalhcaeB on 07/19/2008 2:27 pm

e-mail alert

Sheila, I didn’t have a chance to watch the documentary. I hope it will be available to watch for non-subscribers soon, on DVD, etc. From reading the conversations, I’m beginning to understand why we need to hear/view stories about Heidi. Her story hits a nerve, a universal truth that we can’t ignore. How could a young woman with such opportunity end up in the situation she is currently in? I, personally, believe that we all have a destiny and a life’s purpose. Martha Beck, regular contributor to “O Magazine” and best selling author, cautions that we’re on the wrong path if our purpose leads to our own suffering or the suffering of others. Her life is definitely “out there” and not typical of a “girl gone bad” story. However, it’s enough to wake me up to realize that toxic living and thinking can lead to some really rough stuff and a life that no one should be living. It was her choice and others will make similar, but not so famous choices. What can we do to prevent one to see fixes for money and drugs to be the answers to a life of purpose and joy? Mary Ann Lowry Cognitive Specialist

By Maryann Lowry on 07/19/2008 2:40 pm

e-mail alert

Why are our lives so empty that addiction is the way to go for so so many? Why is it that our country has had more resources and opportunity to build a great society than any other in the history of the world, and we instead have created People Magazine? Why oh why do our children believe having sex at 15 is acceptable? And what can we do about it? (And believe me, I know kids who turn their backs on this stuff.)

By Mugsy Peabody on 07/19/2008 3:03 pm

e-mail alert

I also think some real honesty about roles of women and sexism in this culture would help. Immediately, the questions begin: “Is it a boy or a girl?” Dress them in pink or blue. It’s a good thing to be “Daddy’s little girl,” but a bad thing to be a “Mama’s boy.” And so on it goes. Girls don’t do that. Girls aren’t good at math. Etc. We tell our girl children every day that “male enhancement” is a very important thing, because they get told about it every time they turn on the television. Our girl children’s honest and good self-image is battered and battered every day, until when they are teenagers, and totally beautiful, they paint their faces with “product” because they believe they are ugly. They starve themselves to be thin. And the holes in their hearts grow larger, and larger… In so many ways, Heidi is the all-american girl, and no more so than when we turn our backs on her and shout to the heavens, “Oh, our kids are not like her.” Oh, yes, yes, I’m afraid they are, so many of them, killing themselves to be “Daddy’s little girl.”

By Mugsy Peabody on 07/19/2008 3:54 pm

e-mail alert

Mugsy, I totally agree. Things have to change and I’m still the optimist that believes that they can. According to the brain research folks in neuroscience, girls/women have strong deep wide neural circuits for language. The memories from childhood are velco’ed into their brains. The good news is that the research is finding that women/girls don’t have to live forever with harsh, hurtful traumatic memories. New neural pathways can eventually erode these negative ruts, if women/girls have the chance to develop competence, confidence and connectedness. Most women/girls are not natural risk takers. The more we put ourselves out there and take even turtle step risks things change. Girls need to be connected to their parents or some significant adults. I’m fortunate to be the director of an elementary school. It’s amazing how important it is to tell each girl something special about herself. Boys need the same thing, but because they don’t have as many natural language neurons they don’t hold onto negative memories…like girls. One of the greatest things a Dad can do for his daughter is to take her on some action packed adventure day. Sky-diving, hiking, rock climbing, ropes course or jumping off the high dive with Dad encouraging her and by her side can do mega wonders for a girl’s confidence. People like you care deeply, Mugsy. You will make differences in the lives of kids because you’re alert to what they need. We should talk. I love the way you think.

By Maryann Lowry on 07/19/2008 9:14 pm

e-mail alert

Maryann, there’s an email address attached to my blog: www.mugsypeabody.blogspot.com — you can contact me that way. We have lots more to discuss, I think….

By Mugsy Peabody on 07/19/2008 10:33 pm

e-mail alert

Maryann The information about the brain is fascinating. “women/girls don’t have to live forever with harsh, hurtful traumatic memories. New neural pathways can eventually erode these negative ruts, if women/girls have the chance to develop competence, confidence and connectedness.” I find that statement really interesting. Why is it that competence, confidence and connectedness are the key? I have to question the statement that “don’t have as many natural language neurons….” My oldest son’s literacy and facility with language has always kept me on my toes. At 7 his vocabulary and his ability to use them in a fluid context, surpassed high schoolers. My youngest son also had a great understanding of language, as does my husband. It also depends on the individual child how much negative memories they hold on to, and how much they will let go.

By Frannie Em on 07/20/2008 2:48 am

e-mail alert

Maryann It’s late should say “boys don’t have….”

By Frannie Em on 07/20/2008 2:50 am

e-mail alert

Good point about the neurons. We don’t have cookie cutter brains. Your son came with a brain prewired with some extra language neurons. Good for him. The things I mentioned represent information from the latest neuroscience research. Really fascinating stuff. They do brain scans now to see how our brains light up…representing strengths and where we may have fewer neurons (I’m short on the gross motor neurons). This is an expensive procedure, but your son would probably have a scan showing full power in the language centers of the brain. He won the gene lottery when it comes to verbal skills. Nice! Maryann

By Maryann Lowry on 07/21/2008 2:25 am

e-mail alert

Mugsy: Since I’ve lived a very long time, I’ve seen quite a lot of changes. Back in the day, 40’s and 50’s, families were larger, extended families important, divorce rare, mothers stayed home, church on Sunday a must, schools were no nonsense, pregnancy without wedlock a disgrace, pornography was the centerfold of Playboy magazine, no TV, no internet. A kid was part of the family, not the center of the family. Not to say there were no nut cases and social misfits, there were — they were simply avoided. Slowly we changed. Bit by bit the things that were important to the lives of ordinary people, slipped away. Money became more important than children — raising a bunch of kids is an expensive and thankless job, after all. TV started suggesting to our 2.5 kids, in ways movies never could, what they should wear, eat, think, say. The 60’s and 70’s burst on the scene and with it the pill. Aha !! The very thing that chained women to the stove was eliminated. Now the internet has sealed the deal. Were we better off back then? I don’t think so. Life was just as stressful. Women carried the burden of that society and all those previous to it. Americans are frivolous, and maybe it will be our undoing but I don’t think so.

By Marjorie C. on 07/20/2008 8:29 am

e-mail alert

How many of you sisters (not to exclude you Bro Frank) have had a conversation with a street prostitute? I have-several times in fact. And my experience has been that they are damaged women. Most admit to being violated as young girls by someone they trusted or due to the neglect of a parent(s). Using sex to make money is chosen because it’s profitable and they didn’t gain much from their public school education. They are very matter of fact about having sex for money. I found it surprising to find that some don’t prefer men as love interests- they’re lesbian or bi-sexual. The majority of them don’t have “pimps”, they have acquired a steady group of clients they call “boyfriends” who keep them going financially. Most of are substance abusers and have lost their children due to bad parenting. Desperation gets them on the street and between that and ending up at a place that is under surveillance for drugs and/or prostitution, they get arrested. Talking to them is painful. Their eyes are dark like their souls. One that I spoke to barely escaped with her life when one of her “boyfriends” began to choke her because she wouldn’t make him a sandwich after they had sex. Some are infected with HIV/AIDS. Others haven’t hit the bottom and prostitution is the only life they know. They are in and out of jail on a regular basis. This is the dirty stuff that I’ve been exposed to as part of my work. I wasn’t psychologically prepared for what I saw amongst incarcerated women. Heidi is not unusual. I was surprised to find this perspective on wowowow. Great story and commentary.

By Lena B on 07/19/2008 9:37 pm

e-mail alert

Lena, you are such a brave spirit. I really appreciate your speaking out.

By Mugsy Peabody on 07/19/2008 10:36 pm

e-mail alert

Thank you Sister Mugsy.

By Lena B on 07/19/2008 11:03 pm

e-mail alert

Lena- I ditto what Mugs said.

By Josie Sullivan on 07/22/2008 8:03 pm

e-mail alert

While I was in Guatemala I knew many prostitutes. In one case 4 lived in a one room shack, about 10 x10 with their 5 small children. The women were disease ridden, fevers, coughs, and internal problems and who knows what else, and the poor toddlers were covered in hundreds of mosquito bites. My young mind had never witnessed such a little shop of horrors. Another prostitute, 16, was passed out drunk in the bus seat in front of us with lots of blood running down her arm. We woke her up, and helped her wrap it up. She told us that she lived in the back of a bar and worked as a prostitute. She had a baby that was being raised by her mother who wouldn’t allow her to see the child. She had injured her hand in a drunken bar fight.

By Bella Mia on 07/20/2008 2:26 am