LIZ: No, I didn’t mean two people of the same sex.

LESLEY: Right.

LIZ: It’s just an interesting thing that gays don’t have the same rights as people on death row.

LESLEY: When the California Supreme Court made its ruling, it quoted a court decision of 1948 that banned interracial marriage. That’s what they rested their decision on. And they were saying that anybody should have the freedom to join in marriage and said that the same arguments were used back then against interracial marriage that are being used now for same-sex marriage. That raises a really interesting point, doesn’t it?

LIZ: It seems like America never does the right thing all the way, all at once. I mean, we improve in increments over the years. And then we fall back in horrible examples.

LESLEY: And we have backlashes and —

LIZ: That’s right.

LESLEY: So we move forward.

LIZ: I guess there’ll always be some racism and sexism and gay bashing. But I think we can hope it will diminish.

LESLEY: I saw something the other day about how some conservative groups are beginning to change their views on the subject because marriage is an institution of stability and family life. Attitudes, even among evangelicals, are slowly beginning to change.

LIZ: Well, there are a few people who say gays should be allowed to be as miserable as everybody else — and to deal with property and divorce and all of that.

LESLEY: And diapers.

KATHLEEN: But there’s also a framing issue in all of this, because when the discussion of civil unions first emerged, those who were arguing for them said, "Shouldn’t people have a right to be able to go to a hospital room? Shouldn’t they be able to have a right to inherit property?" And they basically laid out everything that you would assume you would want to have in a caring relationship — protections, legal protections. You could watch in the survey data as people accepted each of those ideas as perfectly reasonable. And so the notion of fair and equal treatment was beginning to enter the discussion out of the rights rhetoric. And that ultimately moves the discussion that culminates in marriage to a different place. It makes it a better, richer, deeper discussion.

LIZ: You’re right.

LESLEY: Kathleen, do you think it will become an issue in this campaign?

KATHLEEN: I think if it does, it’ll be around the Defense of Marriage Act votes. There’s so much else at play this year that I’d be surprised if it becomes a central issue at the national level of discussion.

LESLEY: Do you think that culture war issues will have any traction?

KATHLEEN: I think that the part of the culture war that is going to have the largest amount of traction is going to be expressed as a debate over the Supreme Court, because unlike 2000, we have a Republican candidate. In 2000 they were not saying, "Overturn Roe v. Wade." In fact, in 2000 there were people arguing that George W. Bush was actually pro-choice, because he was being so careful about the way in which he was couching his various positions on everything.

LIZ: And they knew his mother was pro-choice, though she wouldn’t say so.

KATHLEEN: And the way the signaling was being interpreted was, well perhaps Laura Bush and perhaps Barbara Bush and perhaps, as a result, George W. Bush, but there was nothing on the table in 2000 that said repeal, overturn Roe v. Wade. That’s explicitly on the table this year. And as a result, I think you’re going to see the pro-life/pro-choice debate take center stage, over Supreme Court nominees, because the Supreme Court is so close now to having the turn vote appointed.