Conversation | 05/28/2008 9:58 am

Liz Smith: Gays Don't Have the Same Rights as People on Death Row

With Candice Bergen, Lesley Stahl and Liz Smith

Editor’s Note: Featuring Kathleen Jamieson, director of the Annenberg Public Policy Center, a professor of communications and the former dean of the Annenberg School for Communication at the University of Pennsylvania.

LESLEY: This month, the California Supreme Court struck down a ban against homosexual marriage. They say things happen in California first and then spread across the country.

LIZ: But isn’t it likely, Lesley, that this California ruling does not mean very much? That it could be rescinded before we even get used to the idea?

LESLEY: Do you think that if they do put this to a vote that the public will overturn it? Go the other way? Ban homosexual marriages?

LIZ: I don’t know.

LESLEY: Candice, you …

CANDICE: Well, it happened already.

LESLEY: Yeah, that’s right. They voted against it. So we think this could easily be overturned?

LIZ: I think the marriage struggle for gays is going to be a long time coming. But eventually it’ll happen because just as with movements in women’s liberation, a lot of positive things have already taken place. Let’s consider this: A gay woman named Ellen DeGeneres has the most popular talk show in America. She even outstrips Oprah Winfrey. Doesn’t this say something? I think people are really kind of conflicted. Sometimes they’re sneaky and fuzzy when it comes to homosexuality. They go crazy over one demonstration of it, and then they’ll ignore another. And TV and entertainment – now you see they use gays as come-ons, lively examples, for emphasis. They use gay characters the way the movies sort of used the black comic Stepin Fetchit. The networks get a lot of bang for their gay buck.

LESLEY: This is definitely an issue that is generational. No question about it. People under a certain age are ho-hum on this issue. They don’t understand the controversy, and if they come out in large numbers to vote in California, I think that could have a huge effect on how it goes, if it’s put up to a vote this time.

CANDICE: If that’s true, it could also have a huge effect on McCain.

LESLEY: That’s right. What are you picking up on this, Kathleen? Anything?

KATHLEEN: It puts the position that candidates have taken on the Defense of Marriage Act into play in the presidential election. And I think that’s the way we’re going to see it play out. We’re going to see the discussion happen indirectly in relationship to that previous vote, or that previous position.

LESLEY: Are they different?

KATHLEEN: Yeah. The question is, do states have to recognize a marriage from another state or not? That’s one of the issues. And I do believe McCain and Obama are different.

LIZ: Do you remember that a lot of people felt that the Republicans brought up the gay marriage issue and that it helped defeat Al Gore, even though he won the popular vote? So I’m wondering if this was brought up this time to make it an issue again. Or did it just happen?

LESLEY: Well, the Supreme Court of California made the ruling, so it would be hard to see how it was done deliberately to affect the campaign.

LIZ: I had a gay kid say to me the other day, "Men and women on death row can marry people on the outside. They’re allowed to get married. And gays want the same rights as people on death row." I thought that was pretty good thinking.

LESLEY: I didn’t know that. Is that true?

LIZ: Well, women and men on death row are allowed to get married. Sure.

LESLEY: Oh, I see. They’re allowed to get married … not to each other.

226 Reader Comments (so far…) Sign In or Register to comment

While it is on the November ballot, a recent Field poll revealed that the majority of California voters back gay marriage. See http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/05/28/MNOU10U8MB.D… It is a learning process.

By Elizabeth Bennett on 05/28/2008 2:51 pm

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Elizabeth Brock If it is put on the ballot again, Schwarzenegger said he would not support the initiative. In other words, he will not go against the court. The silver lining is that attitudes have changed a lot since that was first voted for. I think now it has the chance to go either way.

By Frannie Em on 05/28/2008 3:17 pm

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duh - of course it has a chance to go either way. I mean to legalize it

By Frannie Em on 05/31/2008 1:03 am

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Man holds man accountable, and holds a third party as responsible, giving that party a name in many thoughts and paths of order. Jesus was a man that walked into change focused, with only the hope of creating change. Knowing that change in thought, would bring change in the world as it was known at that time. With a hope that after he was gone, that his way of creating change would remain. So if it is about WWJD, change is the wish and hope of the universe. If we are truly created in a vision of love, how can the basis of our world be discrimination and avoiding allowing others to express in our society, as they are intended. If we truly choose to be a world that becomes believers in diversity, that includes all people, all religions, all paths of belief becoming a more accepting people all created to be equal, regardless of physical being. Desiring to love as we choose, should be an affirmation of our creation rather than being seen as a part of a disected part of our being, bylawed in the names that we believe have a guiding influence that knows no discrimination. Yet we take to the highest courts, the right to be conscious in society of who we choose to love, legally or as human beings. Blessings, Linda

By Linda Myers on 05/28/2008 1:36 pm

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A sex act? My dear, if we made love as often as the straight world seems to think we do we would be one exhausted group. My relationship is not about my sex life, as pleasant as that may be, it is about our whole life. We don’t ask for special treatment - just for equal treatment. Believe me, you know someone who is gay. You might even love or respect them. We are everywhere. Open your minds and your hearts and let us in. I believe you’re in for a pleasant surprise. And please, don’t send us to the Supreme Court. I don’t believe they are any fairer about inclusion than they were about choosing a President.

By Chef Zee on 05/28/2008 1:54 pm

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Oh, Chef Z, you totally cracked me up with this: A sex act? My dear, if we made love as often as the straight world seems to think we do we would be one exhausted group. I KNOW what you mean, when would we have any time to do a single thing if we were as active as some people seem to think. TOO funny!

By M L Staats on 05/28/2008 6:58 pm

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ChefZee We don’t want you to have to go to the Supreme Court, but we are not in charge of the whole world. You have shown us your heart and your wishes and I hope it works out. It chugs along at the pace it chugs along at.

By Frannie Em on 05/29/2008 12:32 pm

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See; Alright! you hit the nail on the head about the amount of sex we think we do and the Supremes and their incredibly stupid choice for president. And if people as you say would only open their hearts a lot more than they do then the world would certainly be a better place.

By Frank Peterson on 05/28/2008 2:01 pm

Frank These are the things I was taught about love: love is not an emotion, but a behavior (but it feels good) Unconditional acceptance Putting another’s needs ahead of your own Being able to say to someone “You are more important to me than any mistake you could ever make. It is simple but human beings have a hard time practicing it.

By Frannie Em on 05/28/2008 3:34 pm

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The most constant thing in my life is the knowledge that in order for most people to feel good about themselves they have to have someone to look down on. I hate to generalize but the popular vote in Calif. tends to prove my point. Why in heaven’s name would I care if my neighbors were gay and married? How does that effect me in anyway? What would affect me is if they were noisey until 3am, littered, and let their dog poop in my yard. Now that women have the vote, blacks have equal rights, gays are getting close, who will be the next group that will drive this nation to distraction?

By Maggi D on 05/28/2008 2:30 pm

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Maggi D I think what has happened is that there has been so much destructive behavior with drugs in our population, students dropping out of school, teen pregnancies, child abandonment, child abuse and on and on. The general population views this as the unfortunate destruction of many of the beneficial elements of our society. There is solid advancement in many areas, but this marriage initiative is unfortunately perceived as one of the above issues, when it is not. If the public relations on this can separate it and distinguish from the above, more people will understand it.

By Frannie Em on 05/28/2008 11:37 pm

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Frannie, Dear, as to the “students dropping out of school, teen pregnancies, child abandonment, child abuse and on and on…” of course these are the children of straight people, so perhaps what should happen is that gays should raise the children, since the rest of you-all are doing such a piss-poor job of it!

By Mugsy Peabody on 05/29/2008 4:19 pm

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Mugsy, I knew I would get a reaction from that one. I know, that is why I posted it to see who would pick up on that. Yes, you are right. There are tremendous problems in American families and it doesn’t have to do with gayness. Unfortunately, many families feel so overwhelmed about surviving these days, that they just throw the gay issue in with those challenges. They haven’t separated it. I am not saying that is right or making an excuse for it, I am just making an observation. I read your long post above and I am glad you said what you said. Some people will understand, and others won’t. I don’t have a problem with gay marriage. I say the sooner the issue is resolved in a positive way, the better. It is a matter of civil rights. Unfortunately, as you know, even if you have the right to marry, it doesn’t mean people will be civil about it. You know better than I what it takes to live through that, and I am sorry you have had to face the discrimination because of people’s fear. You are more worthy than that. I appreciate you for who you are.

By Frannie Em on 05/29/2008 8:16 pm

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I am always amazed at people who identify themselves as Christians, when they should more accurately call themselves Leviticans or even Levites. They drag out Leviticus and it’s ridiculous ‘laws’ to defend indefensible positions. It was of course Leviticus that was quoted to justify slavery. Latest Poll Numbers from the Field Report~

Field Poll (PDF). 5/17-26. California Registered voters. MoE 3.2%

“Do you favor or oppose changing the California State Constitution to define marriage as between a man and a woman, thus barring marriage between gay and lesbian couples?” Favor 40 Oppose 54 “There may be a vote on this issue in the November election. Would you favor or oppose having the state constitution prohibit same-sex marriage, by defining marriage as only between a man and a woman? Favor 43 Oppose 51

By Deni G on 05/28/2008 2:48 pm

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Deni- have to admit to ignorance here. Why is it that all I hear about is the fact that the people of Calif. voted against gay marriage? Am I, once again, believing rumors rather than fact?

By Maggi D on 05/28/2008 3:09 pm