MARY: A lot of people were shocked by Mrs. Clinton at first.

JUDITH: A lot of people voted for her.

JULIA: In what way were people shocked by Hillary? On what level?

MARY:  She was opinionated. She felt that she had rights. She felt that she would do better; that she would control things better and she would make better decisions; that she would do better than the men around her.

JULIA: Well, now we’re going down a different road. I really do think that the initial reactions to Hillary, the negative reaction to Hillary in 1993, beginning with Clinton’s Inauguration, was “man or a woman, we didn’t elect her.” It seemed apparent that there was some weird marital bargain made and all of the sudden – Presto! — this woman who had sort of a semi-decent job at a semi-decent law firm in Little Rock was driving health-care policy and doing it behind closed doors in a really controlling way, a badly controlling way, like you’re accusing men of doing.  She could have been a little bit more adept, but "where did she come from and why do we care about what she thinks about healthcare?" was the initial question. And I think it was a valid one.

MARY: I agree with you. When we got into where she came from it wasn’t so great.

JULIA: The problem was not that she was a woman. It was because she was a pushy, unqualified woman that came out of nowhere. It was like "Why is the First Lady suddenly in charge of my life?" And now she’s respected. She’s done her hard work and I don’t think she shocks people anymore.

JUDITH: May I say something to the last part just for a minute? There was a very nasty reaction against her at the beginning of the Clinton administration. It was worse than a bad appointment would get. And that was always the complaint: “Well, who elected her?” Cabinet ministers aren’t elected either. They’re appointed. They’re the people that the president trusts. There was a special thing, as there often is for First Ladies — not, at least so far, for Mrs. Obama — of feeling that somehow she’s not a legitimate member of that group. The president can appoint a brother, an old pal, and that’s all right, but if the wife is doing something, then that’s wrong.

MARY: You know, Julia, I used the wrong word when I said people seem shocked. That’s not what I meant. What I meant is that, in that whole period, there always were a lot of men. She was the only important woman. It’s not that people were shocked, because everybody knew her very well. It’s just that she was like the men. She was very expectant and she was very powerful and she had very strong ideas. She was just like the men.

JULIA: Right. But back to what Judith said — I agree that the reaction was really strong and that, yes, the president might appoint his brother and they appoint Cabinet members and we don’t elect them. But, usually, when you appoint a Cabinet member they’ve got long, long years of service in their department. Hillary was much more abrasive when she first got to the White House. She’s definitely changed her whole act. Whether we’re talking about the First Lady or a First Man, I want to know why I should be paying attention to them first. I think it’s great that Michelle Obama seems to be a true partner to the president and they seem to have a very strong marriage. And I’m sure, like many First Ladies before her, she’ll give him support and advice and all that kind of stuff. But she’s playing it smarter than Hillary did. And I think that’s a good thing. If it were a man in the position, I’d feel the same way. I’d want to know why I should listen to his opinions.