Conversation | 05/21/2008 8:35 am

Percentage of Voters Say They Would Never Vote for a Woman, Regardless of Qualifications

© AP

Editor’s Note: Featuring Kathleen Jamieson, director of the Annenberg Public Policy Center, a professor of communications and the former dean of the Annenberg School for Communication at the University of Pennsylvania.

LESLEY: Well, what about sexism? Yeah, let’s talk about the second “ism.”

LIZ: Can I say something?

LESLEY: Please.

Click here to read Part One: At a Table in So-Called Liberal NYC, Woman Announces: I’ll Never Vote for a Black Man for President.

Click here to read Part Three: Who Says Older Ages Equal Serious Health Problems?

LIZ: I want to preface my remarks now by saying I’ve always been a really lousy feminist and Gloria Steinem once said that I was the worst because, she said, “Liz, you want to be the only Jew in the club.” And so I got the message then. I tried to repent. But now sexism is coming late to this discussion. I think it’s probably too late. And I think the sexists mostly all say they just don’t like Hillary. But they don’t have anything against women in office. I think if you look at the statistics, 13 percent of voters say they would never vote for a woman no matter how qualified she was. And our friend Cynthia McFadden spoke this weekend at Bryn Mawr and she said the world economic forum in Davos assessed gender equality in 93 percent of the world population, and the United States dropped from 23rd on the list in 2006 to 31st in 2007. So only 13 percent of Congress is female. Women make 77 cents for every dollar men make. I just think sexism is really alive in this world. And The New York Times had a wonderful piece in the magazine Sunday, by Peggy Orenstein, discussing this.

LESLEY: You know what’s really interesting to me? That this bubbles up at a time when Hillary Clinton won virtually half the primary votes, from lots and lots of white men, who essentially were saying they could see her as a commander-in-chief. She raised a whole lot of money; people said women would never be able to raise a whole lot of money. I mean, there is some kind of disconnect here.

LIZ: Yeah. Well, I think these discussions are too late to be of any use to her. But it all leads back to us being reminded that black men were given the right to vote in America 50 years before women received it. So nothing much has changed.

KATHLEEN: But it’s got to be possible in this kind of discussion to say that Hillary Clinton’s campaign was not the campaign that could have been waged on her behalf — there are failures in the campaign. There were failures in its assumptions about how to deal with the caucuses. One can’t say that Clinton’s candidacy faltered because of sexism; one can say that — gender and race out of the equation — tactically the Obama campaign ran a much better campaign. It figured out how to get the advantage of higher numbers of delegates in caucus states. It figured out how to go to those districts that had essentially more votes; more capacity to produce delegate strength. And it concentrated there, while the Clinton campaign was off in those areas — that had less capacity to generate the delegates — with the same amount of effort. And the Obama campaign figured out how to raise money. So, I think that sex and race are at play this year and I think that they are playing in ways that are both obvious and subtle. But, there are also all the other dynamics that come into play when campaigns do well and do poorly, regardless of race and gender.

To another point on this subject, the amount of sexism on the Internet is just appalling. And that young people will put their own names and their own identities up on space on the Internet, such as Facebook, attached to demeaning comments about women in general and Hillary Clinton in particular. And then when someone comes onto the site to object, that person will be subject to what we would call ad staminem rather than ad hominem. We should find attacks that are vulgar in the extreme disturbing, regardless of whether or not we are Hillary Clinton supporters.


LESLEY: So the idea that racism is a taboo, but sexism is fine, is alive and well on the Internet?

KATHLEEN: I believe that sexism is alive and well on the Internet. And the productive piece is that recently, after Tina Fey’s segment on "Saturday Night Live," a couple of groups have emerged to try to fight what they see as misogyny on the Internet and misogyny in mainstream broadcast.

LESLEY: And when you say on "Saturday Night Live," what misogynist —

KATHLEEN: Tina Fey. When Tina Fey went on with the segment that concludes that “bitch” is the new black, a site emerges on the web that basically plays out of that segment and produces commentary about it. And a second site emerges as well which basically takes on the concept that these sorts of attacks in broadcast and on the web, against Hillary Clinton but on misogynistic grounds, are inappropriate.

HerTube: Pop CultureWatch wOw's Lesley Stahl and Liz Smith on CNN's 'American Morning' Thursday

269 Reader Comments (so far…)

Teresa Proctor

I feel we are all kidding ourselves, if we think that sexism does not exist today. Sure we may have more options today but equality does not exist in this country, nor in many others. The fact that know one is truly addressing this, is truly appalling. This is not about the Women’s movement of the 60/70’s. This is about Women stepping up and standing proudly and firmly in their position as equals. The is about Women receiving the same amount of respect as men. For no other reason than human dignity. Until we in this country value Women as equals, we will never have a Women president, not to mention that many other countries have already had Women leaders. We will never have equal pay or equal say in this country. So Women, it is up to us to determine our own futures, if the status quo feels comfortable great if not step up and start speaking your truth from a place of heart and not ego. This is the only way we will ever be heard or being about change.

By Teresa Proctor on 05/20/2008 12:32 pm
beverly linens

Years ago I can’t remember how many years, I heard my mother claim she wasn’t voting for a female candidate for Governor because she was a woman. When challenged she couldn’t give any reason other than she was a woman. Over the years I’ve thought about her statement. I have to admit she pretty much lived her life that way. With very few exceptions the positions of importance and power, doctor, lawyer, preacher, boss, were all men. She felt comfortable that way. The only female she ever leaned on or went to for help on anything significant was to me, her daughter. Now she thought I could do anything or figure anything out. She was a strong, hard working, capable woman herself but didn’t even trust her own judgment. She would have been 95 if she were alive today. I don’t know if that was just the result of her generation or if there are women out there today who still feel that way. I would love to hear from others who’ve seen similar things in the women around them.

By beverly linens on 05/20/2008 4:49 pm
~countrywoman ~

EGAD beverly linens, (5/20/2008 4:49 PM) can I ever relate! My mom was raised in the South where men apparently walked on water. Dad brought her to Oregon, but she did her best to raise a “good Southern girl,” and threatened to send me to finishing school when I began to question the premise. This from a woman who was widowed at 25 with three small children, who rolled up her sleeves and raised us like a mama bear, who always earned less than she was worth and accepted her status quietly…..ladies don’t rock the boat!. She too thought a woman could not possibly be a good doctor or lawyer or politician. When I married a very evolved man who valued me as a partner, she was bewildered by this. It created no end of conflict for her belief system that our arrangement worked so well. I am fortunate in that mom is still with me, but to this day she defines her strong capable self by her Southern model, and is upset when she is referred to a woman doctor. Needless to say, we have many areas that will always be off-limits for conversation.

By ~countrywoman ~ on 05/21/2008 12:55 pm
Jean Licata

I’ve been wondering when women and men who are evolving, were going to become outraged to action. My idea is instead of women taking the lead as in the Womens’ Movement of old, we must see that the leaders of men who realize what the human race looses without the full impact of the female intelligence being appreciated, would get to the movement ASAP!!!
Where are the men who love women, heck, where are the women???

By Jean Licata on 05/25/2008 8:33 am
A B

The New York Times ran an article recently about who is waiting in the wings to run for first woman president after Hillary. It was a pretty bleak article, with a stretch even suggesting possibly Chelsea.

Now Obama is also talking about the next generation of women for president.

Obama patronizingly says, “Senator Clinton has shattered myths and broken barriers and changed the America in which my daughters and your daughters will come of age, and for that we are grateful to her.”

Oh, well, why not wait for his daughters and for your daughters and for another generation and for maybe another fifty years or so.

By A B on 05/21/2008 9:28 am
Mary Lou From Maine

Patronizingly????!!!” Why is this statement characterized thus? Because it came from him? What, exactly do Hillary’s supporters want? Do you even know? I am a 60 year old white woman who has been a feminist since it all began and I am an Obama supporter. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO with sexism that many of us see that he is the person who resonates most with this moment in history (or even “herstory”). No matter what he says, he can’t win. He’s accused of dismissing her or patronizing when he acknowledges her. What Hillary failed to do in this campaign after years of left-brained planning and strategizing about becoming President, was to see that there is always a person who meets and matches the moment. He is that person. It’s sad that so many women want her to be President ONLY because she is a woman without realizing that she doesn’t seem to embody the Feminine Principle — that the Feminine Principle isn’t about having to be female!

By Mary Lou From Maine on 05/21/2008 1:59 pm
Pamela Munro

Absolutely ! I agree. Obama can serve as a unifying factor for the country - whereas Clinton for many reasons is not in a position to do so - I am a dyed in the wool & tried by fire feminist - but not backing Hillary had nothing to do with that.

By Pamela Munro on 05/21/2008 4:22 pm
Deni G

Mary Lou,

I am an Obama supporter, just to let you know.

But, I disagree that women want Senator Clinton to be President only because she is a woman. I don’t think there is anything sad about her passionate supporters. She has a long history of fighting for women and womens’ rights. She is not somewhere standing in the shadows in regards to her stance on Democratic Values. She and Obama have almost identical voting records. You may disagree with her. I have a few disagreements with her. But I do not doubt for a minute that she would fight for womens’ rights’ and that she is an incredible woman..

By Deni G on 05/21/2008 4:57 pm
Frau Quink

I totally agree with you. I don’t believe sexism has anything to do with my choosing Obama over Clinton.

By Frau Quink on 05/21/2008 5:07 pm
A B

Mary Lou From Maine, I hope we can agree to disagree. It is a matter of perception.

My theory is that any presidential candidate probably has few principles left. So I am hoping that, with a woman running for president, we don’t raise the bar for her and say that she must also “embody the Feminine Principle”.

I find Hillary a flawed candidate but the 43 male presidents have had their flaws. I find Obama a flawed candidate also but I would like a female flawed candidate to be President of the United States of America.

By A B on 05/25/2008 11:50 am
Renata

Mary Lou - I have often found on the WoW site — and in general here in New York City, where I live and work — that HRC “feminist” supporters a) define HRC as THE standard-bearer for what defines “feminism”, and, b) openly personally assault other women if we do not adopt her/their strict definition and HRC as the optimum representation of it.

Of course, that is divisive and toxic — as HRC is, herself. This is the Gloria Steinem/Gerry Ferraro dated model — and why the “Movement” itself is dated in its interpretation in modern society.

Instead of creating a collaborative, evolved model that embraces ALL perspectives regarding the feminist interpretation — that includes respect for differing ethnicities and a place for men, as well — our young openly MOCK HRC and the toxic, dated interpretations/definitions — as well they should.

After this Election is over, older “feminists” will have to take stock of THEMSELVES and the role they may have played in HRC’s failure(s) as well as how their own toxic/entitled communications and personal assaults of those who do not share their confining point of view — have FAILED women at-large and set us back.

Barack Obama is a real feminist and so is his wife. They are nobody’s VICTIMS and don’t feel entitled to anything they don’t EARN. They planned a superior Campaign and EXECUTED it. HRC planned an ascendancy, leveraging women every step of the way. Some of us will not be leveraged, nor do we buy into her sense of entitlement strictly based upon her sex. That is NOT feminism to some of us — and until our perspective is respected and accepted as part of the tapestry — an elite tier of 7-Sister women — will continue to be viewed as archaic and out-of-touch.

I was ashamed to watch Gloria Steinem and Gerry Ferraro over the last couple of months. I felt SORRY for them.

Our daughters cannot and will not carry THAT banner.

By Renata on 05/28/2008 11:09 am
Everyone--into the Rose Garden

I agree Mary Lou. It’s not sexism but that Hillary is irredeemably contemptible. As Camille Paglia wrote in Salon…”Hillary with her thin, spotty record, tangled psychological baggage, and maundering blowhard of a husband, is also a mighty big roll of the dice. She is a brittle, relentless manipulator with few stable core values who shuffles through useful personalities like a card shark (“Cue the tears!”). Forget all her little gold crosses: Hillary’s real god is political expediency. Do Americans truly want this hard-bitten Machiavellian back in the White House? Day one will just be more of the same. I plan to vote for Barack Obama… because he is a rational, centered personality who speaks the language of idealism and national unity. Obama has served longer as an elected official than Hillary. He has had experience as a grass-roots activist, and he is also a highly educated lawyer who will be a quick learner in office. His international parentage and childhood, as well as his knowledge of both Christianity and Islam, would make him the right leader at the right time. And his wife Michelle is a powerhouse. The Obamas represent the future, not the past.”

Wed 6/4 Senator Obama will be the nominee and Clinton will be what she made herself today….totally loathed by all the stakeholders.

By Everyone--into the Rose Garden on 05/30/2008 2:41 am
~countrywoman ~

In reply to: Everyone—into the Rose Garden - 5/30/2008 2:41 AM

It is so encouraging to read the truth and common sense reflected in your comments. I am in agreement with your well-reasoned support for Barack Obama, and appreciate your voice.

Re the nomination on 6/4, I pray you are psychic.

By ~countrywoman ~ on 05/31/2008 2:33 pm
phyllis Doyle Pepe

A B____don’t be mean. Aren’t we lucky to have a male presidential candidate who speaks for women in that way. Obviously you are angry, but open up, embrace what’s good about all this and try to see the big picture.

By phyllis Doyle Pepe on 05/21/2008 5:44 pm
A B

phyllis Doyle Pepe, You say, “Aren’t we lucky to have a male presidential candidate who speaks for women in that way.”

And I say, The only man I want to speak for me is when the ship is sinking and that bearded gentle soul points to the lifeboat and commands, “Ladies first.”

By A B on 05/25/2008 12:04 pm