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Conversation | 03/31/2008 11:30 am

'We Just Don't Elect Presidents We Don't Like'

© Shutterstock

EDITOR’S NOTE: Also featuring special guest, Joni Evans, CEO of wowOwow.

JONI: Well, let’s talk about the campaign. Lesley, what are you thinking about it today?

LESLEY: Well, what’s on my mind today is why Hillary Clinton has taken such a hit for her — let’s call it — “creative fabrication” of what happened to her at that airport in Bosnia. And why John McCain, who made a gaffe the week before about whether Iran was controlling Al Qaeda didn’t. Anybody who’s been looking at the Middle East knows there’s no connection – the Iranians are Shiites; Al Qaeda is Sunni. It’s unfathomable that he didn’t know that. So why does she get tarred and feathered and he gets off easy and goes away? What is the dynamic there? Is it Hillary, or is it something else? And let me throw out a proposition and then we can argue about it if you want: Hillary has a credibility problem. People have said for a long time that she makes things up. It’s one of her largest problems, and it sticks to her. She’s got a sticky problem with telling the truth. And so this fed into it and she cannot escape from it now. It’s crazy to think she did it totally deliberately because her … she’d been warned it wasn’t true. There was something psychological to it in a way, in my mind. And I wonder if it almost isn’t a metaphor for the way she perceives her current situation. Maybe for her what’s going on in the campaign is constant incoming fire and she kind of mixed these up. John McCain, on the other hand, has no problem with foreign policy issues. People think he’s an expert on it so if he makes a little mistake, he’s forgiven. It’s not a problem. It doesn’t resonate and he can move on. It’s just to me a fascinating situation when you look at the two gaffes side by side. Anybody have any thoughts?

MARY: One of the thoughts I had about it, when you were talking, is it seems to me that one of the problems with this particular lie issue for Hillary is that it went on for days. And it just isn’t possible that the people advising her, or that the people around her, wouldn’t have said to her, “This is not a fact and you’re going to get caught up with this. Let’s figure out a solution to this,” much earlier. It just went on too long with her kind of insisting on keeping the lie going. I mean, if they had faced up to it much faster I think it would have been …

LESLEY: But why do you think she did it? It almost makes no sense.

JONI: I wonder if it’s a lie as much as a gaffe. I think there’s a big difference to a lie like, “I did not have sex with that woman.” Maybe it’s just her memory. Maybe she actually believes what she said.

LIZ: I think she just enhanced an experience that she didn’t remember too clearly. And in the same way that people writing memoirs make themselves the heroines and heroes of it. I do think it would have been pretty stupid for her to have done it deliberately. You can’t get away with anything anymore.

134 Reader Comments (so far…) Sign In or Register to comment

e.e. cummings
CHAMELEON MAN SHOOTS SELF IN FOOT Chameleon-man shoots self in foot! Small-town America=gun-toting, bitter, immigrant-loathing, god-fearing folks frightened by the unfamiliar? Hey, Barack scores at last in his accuracy; however in an improper/inappropriate setting, confiding to west coast country-clubbers how the other half, on the wrong side of the tracks, lives. Obama seems to be caught…with his coloration detectors down! What do we have here—slapstick or catastrophe? Mid-western pouting commences, no doubt, even as speech-making Obama attempts to save his fanny in, of all places, Terre Haute, Indiana (April 10)—“high ground” indeed. Punch one delivered to McCain for his lackadaisical indifference toward the troubled economy and its mortgage crisis; punch two toward Hillary for tightening bankruptcy laws awhile back—thus placing the blame for mid-west, small-town, economically-based angst on the two of them. Nice try, Barack, but no one watches television on a Friday night…which could cut both ways for you? So, let’s leave Andy Griffith-ish, Dick van-Dyke-ish Bill Clinton alone for the time being, as he squirms his way through the contrived Bosnian sniper fire brouhaha non-story. Of course, Jeremiah Wright will not resurface until the general election if it comes to that. For now, as campaigning for the democratic presidential nomination wears on, we have bigger fish to fry…and this time, we’ve got ourselves a whopper! Call the taxi-dermist! A spot above the mantel-piece awaits
By e.e. cummings on 04/12/2008 1:57 am
e.e. cummings
(oh, there’s more—i came up with MISOGYNY idea before elton john ever said ANYthing—he actually got criticized by the “pundits” alllll day yesterday for using a “european” word…what’s with the dumbing down and sophomoric approach of what’s left of the “press” in 2008? ) READ ON! THE DEMISE OF HUNTLEY, BRINKLEY, CRONKITE, AND SEVAREID We democrats wish to halt the Iraqi skirmish, reverse No Child Left Behind, stabilize the price of oil, address the war on the middle class, advance stem-cell research as well as rejuvenate scientific break-throughs, acknowledge the threat of global-warming, deal fairly with the immigration issue, solve the mortgage crisis, tax-trounce those privileged 1% of the richie riches, create jobs in the greening of America movement while curbing out-sourcing, as well as universally medically insure every man, woman, and child. That’s all we ask! Why oh why then must we watch Senator Barack Obama prance down an aisle lined with rows upon rows of pom-pom waving, scantily-clad, legitimate, eagerly gleeful cheer-leaders, prior to eventually sprinting further along the track toward beaming host Chris Matthews of MSNBC’s College Tour production for an engaging one-on-one interview campaigning for the position of…prom king? Meanwhile, on the Fox Network, the latest poll airs, hovering on television screens across this great country of ours, revealing the results of Senator Hillary Clinton’s phoniness profile? Every misogynist’s dream come true! Gimme an M, gimme an I-S-O-G-Y-N-Y! HISS, BOOM, BAH! All of this just as we finally almost believed there might be “life after high school”!
By e.e. cummings on 04/12/2008 2:05 am
The Ole Crone The Ole Crone
Possibly there is somethin’ we’re missin’ here. It’s not about campaigns and personalities. It’s about some really huge issues that seem to have come upon us all at once and need takin’ care of all at once. What we’re missin’ is the real detailed discussion of character, experience, statesmanship, accountability, and the wisdom to meet these issues right away and the network to find the right people to put in the right places to do the job. I don’t care if the person is polkadot and both male and female and has a rotten personality and has warts, —if they can manage the crises we have before us, —effectively and justly. We got us big problems and I’m afraid the upper middle class and the lower upper class isn’t gettin’ it. The U.S.A. seems to be in the process of bein’ takin’ out from the bottom up. This bottom has gotten quite large. The upper middleclass and lower upperclass are only a bite away. If you don’t own and operate your own U.S.A.an business you aren’t really middleclass. Middleclass is not determined by wage. It was the middleclass (shop, trade, manufacturin’ business owners) that mounted the American Revolution. We don’t have a real middleclass anymore. Very few people are truly middleclass anymore. The largest employer in the U.S.A. may be ‘the state’ —being any industry that must abide by heavy state/fed policies to even do business. Others with decent paychecks are employed by some huge corp that has it’s hooks into many countries with no alligence to any. Many jobs or ‘professions’ in the U.S.A. can go real fast. Worth thinkin’ about? Lookin’ around?
By The Ole Crone The Ole Crone on 04/12/2008 4:41 pm
ariadne a
the long and winding road… the press, the same press that treated hillary as the presumptive nominee for over a year, is now the problem? men, who do not want a woman for a president, misogynists all, are part of the problem? other candidates, picking on the poor woman, are part of the problem? spin, ladies, spin. learn to recognize it when you see/hear it. obfuscation, prevarication, triangulation all part of the old political paradigm. if one has the time, as i do, to watch every little maneuver, one begins to see a pattern… a bold, garish, unsettling pattern. … and the sound waves and distortion are coming from the clinton camp. it is very hard to smear a decent man. newsweeks richard wolffe has been on the campaign trail for over a year with obama and today on the tim russert show wolffe told tim that basically, obama really believes that we can have a new type of politics. he actually[obama] believes and practices what he says in his speeches. wolffe also said that obama, contrary to the spin, is very detailed and can go on, ad nauseum, in great detail about his policies and the questions posed by the audiences. we need no more ‘confusion,’ about bosnia, the irish peace accords, nafta, columbia and on and on and on. whatever the reason… hillary clinton lies. haven’t we had enough of that for the last 7 years?
By ariadne a on 04/13/2008 12:18 am
Corner Brooke
Did you hear Bill Clinton explain that they were counseled about snipers in the area before they got off the plane, and the greeting ceremony was rushed. Unfortunately, Bill didn’t know how many times Hillary told the story, so he misstated that she only said it once when she was tired. The press, however, who doesn’t seem to like Hillary very much, kept replaying the part of Bill’s comment when he misstated that she ‘told the story once when she was tired.’ For some reason they failed to replay the part of his speech where he said they ‘WERE COUNSELED ABOUT SNIPERS IN THE AREA BEFORE THEY GOT OFF THE PLANE AND THE GREETING CEREMONY WAS CUT SHORT.’ They only accentuate the parts they feel makes their story more interesting - or works against Hillary. This is a trick that lawyers use. They ignore stuff that works against the point they are trying to make, regardless of how important the other stuff is, and focus only on the stuff that supports their position, which may actually be very weak. In this way, they can almost alter reality. Thus, Hillary did not tell a bold-faced lie, she exaggerated what actually happened. If I had traveled to 80+ countries under varying conditions, I’d probably remember some things wrong, too.
By Corner Brooke on 04/13/2008 6:40 pm
The Ole Crone The Ole Crone
Methinks that Senator Clinton should suggest to her husband to take a trip to another country, hug a child who will appreciate his efforts. He is as bad as Barbara Bush when it comes to criticism to his spouse! Remember? She’d go ballistic! We loved her. He’s really goin’ over the edge, and needs to go to flatter country for awhile. I suspect he is re-thrashing a rage that has been in him for a long time from the unbelievable horrendous politics over the last 16 years and greatly interferring with his plans as President. NeoCon Spoilers took years off ‘the work’ with their antics to demonize the President. And should she get the nomination it will begin again, big time. He’s bein’ more protective than he needs to be for his Spouse. If she would just be Hillary Rodham Clinton instead of what everyone tries to tell her to be, —she’ll be just fine. It’s damn hard to be what everyone else is tellin’ you you must be. Hard to keep facts straight that really aren’t yours. She needs to tell the ‘Party’ and the so called experts, after she puts the former President on a plane, to back off as to how she presents herself. Let them organize a campaign but to leave her personality alone as to makeover. The Senator has never been about congeniality or social intercourse. She’s always been goal orientated and her nose to the grindstone to get the job done. And she’s had her nose chaffed several time huh? And she healed well, yes? She is a statesperson and a fine detailed politician. She is not a politico and should not try to be. It’s detrimental to our health. Senator Clinton needs to stop talkin’ about OBama and McCain. Jumpin’ on Obama’s latest small town remarks was a bad choice. Everyone with more than i/2 a brain knew what he was talkin’ about and he was right. Just drill real facts and solutions into the voter’s heads real real clear. Drill, drill, drill. Let the other two candidates make their own mistakes. She shouldn’t make them her business. They are our business. And gawd she should stop doin’ what the other two do: politico barkin’ and sayin’ the same thing over and over and over again. Edwards ‘was’ my first choice. But I never got the chance to vote for him in NYS. But gawd if I heard that same story of medical insurance and that family one more time I think I would have blown apart. It ends up makin’ the story a deficit! And makin’ us look stupid. Candidates pointin’ out the others trivial mistakes demeans themself. It’s not respectful to the process. Her nature is to be above it and to ‘do business’. She should follow her Nature. Then the other candidates will have to do the same thing better than she. She should only compete with herself to be her best. She is a serious well minded candidate and probably more prepared than what former President Clinton was. She’s formable and should be in everyone’s consideration. This is difficult because the media as to entertainment and news media is unbelievably bias, and quite unintelligent, methinks. But lack of intelligence would promote bias wouldn’t it? I heard a woman on C-Span say she was a Hillary ‘fan’. The caller should be sent to her room. Fan? Isn’t it grow up time?— or do we need to have the roof fall in on us? This isn’t a sport or entertainment! I can’t even figure out how people have even made up their mind already! ‘Party Fans’? ‘Gender Fans’? ‘Race Fans’? ‘Rage Fans’? And we expect our candidates to be less dysfunctional than ourselves, do as we say not as we do? A totally informed voter is so very important this time. The neocons and paranoid Hawks have a lot to lose should the captured Republican Party lose. The battle may have begun but the real war of the Presidency will be fought once the nomination has been made for the Democrat Party. And we will see plenty of money come outta the walls to fund the political war. After all think of the money, the wealth, lost by not havin’ an ongoin’ war/s We need to think, ponder, and think some more. The peole who say pull out right now are wrong. The others who say we need to be there for another 50 to 100 years are wrong. Both are different sides of the same coin. These people are coming from the emotion of fear more than the thoughts of a problem solver. We need to do the right thing in how we leave Iraq, as to their people and infrastructure we blew out. We need to be a sophistigated Habitat for Humanity, not a prophet stealin/ Haliburtin or Backwater type. We need to put Iraq men to work, not bring in slave labor. We need to get out yes, but in the right way. The ‘Right Way’ about our whole system needs to be thought about. Fixed. For us to push the candidates to say they stay or get out is from emotion and ideology. The issue should be how do we do it with integrity to both sides and how do we keep from gettin’ into these ‘imperisalistic’ messes anymore. How do we as a Nation, in our actions to ourselves and to others, —set up a Win/Win model. Isn’t it clear that the Win/Lose model in the long run creates only losers?
By The Ole Crone The Ole Crone on 04/14/2008 10:14 am
Buh- Bye
VOTER FATIGUE I keep hearing the the term voter fatigue used as a justification for Hillary to forfeit her bid for the nomination. Yet the voices calling for a quick conclusion to this race come seem to come from the states which have already voted. Friends of mine from states who haven’t yet had their say at the polls are champing at the bit to be part of the process.
By Buh- Bye on 04/15/2008 2:16 pm
Gayle Turner
Gayle Turner 4/17/08 11:05 pm I just finished listening to the PA. Debate. I think Hillary did a great job, and came out winner. I would like to see a woman in the White House, and think she would be a good president— maybe great. I have this feeling that McCain will win if he selects the right V.P. I would consider voting for him if his choice is Mick Romney. I’m a confused Democrat—I think we have been in this election process to long. Obama just doesn’t have enough experience. Hillary is my first pick—-then??
By Gayle Turner on 04/17/2008 1:13 am
Aura Rossi
Inspiring conversation. I support Hillary Clinton. Most criticism is based on how she maneuvers in the Catch 22—discussed thoroughly above. Most criticism is about stuff that I consider inconsequential. She is the only choice that makes sense to me. She is smart and able to use her talents and experience to benefit the US. She is confident. We need a confident president with substance. We all have experience with how our worth and skills are evaluated/devalued. We do not win, if we are not able to present our credentials, our proposal, or our position. When we do a good job of this, we may be labeled as arrogant, a bitch, naive, etc. Real life example: It was reported to my superior, after a job interview, that I was either really, really good or really, really arrogant; she confirmed that I was really, really good. I refused the job when it was offered. I didn’t want to work for someone who couldn’t figure it out on his own. About the Bosnia flap, Hillary could be recalling the real danger that was predicted and the fear that was not released when the meeting turned out to be safer than imagined. She is not perfect. She is far more capable than Barack Obama or John McCain. The latter two scare me—for different reasons, but they are equally scary. Also heard that the Republicans are secretly (deviously) supporting Barack because he will be easier to beat in November. My problem with the WOWOWOW.COM site is that it is too provocative; get in and get hooked. Don’t stop!
By Aura Rossi on 04/17/2008 3:26 pm
M M
This election is like the prodigal son parable—one I never could get past every time I hear it. You work hard, you do the right thing, you care—and when the other guy finds hope and salvation at the eleventh hour, yoiu no longer exist… I guess you can take that analogy all the way through to campaigns, career, divorce and last celebrity standing. campaigns,
By M M on 04/18/2008 3:40 pm
Michael Salling
HERE’S MY RESPONSE TO THE FOLLOWING POST ON THE FIRST PAGE: Ladies, the reason Hillary lied and stuck to it for so many days is, she is that arrogant. She probably did believe her version because she is a pathological pschopathic liar. She should most definitely be held accountable for her blatent arrogant behavior. MADAM, SHE’S NOT A PATHOLOGICAL LIAR OR SHE’D HAVE BEEN OUTED AND BRANDED AS SUCH LONG AGO, AS HER HUSBAND WAS BRANDED A WOMANIZER FROM DAY ONE AND NOBODY CARED. BECAUSE HE MAN, THE ELECTORATE OVERLOOKED THIS ACHILLES HEELHE WAS ELECTED AND REELECTED, JUST AS SHRUB BUSH WAS REELECTED WHEN MOST AMERICANS KNEW HE HAD A BIT OF CREDIBILITY HIMSELF. [YES, I KNOW ALL CAPS IS SUPPOSED TO BE ONLINE SCREAMING, BUT WHAT IS ALL LOWER CASEONLINE WHISPERING?] WHAT HILLARY DOES SO WELL IS WHAT ALL STORY TELLERS HAVE BEEN DOING THROUGH THE AGES SINCE WE GATHERED AROUND THE FIRE OUTSIDE THE CAVE EVERY DAY AFTER SUNDOWN. AND WHO WOULD DISPUTE THE REALITY THAT ANY WOMAN TRYING TO SUCCEED IN THE MALE DOMINATED WORLD OF LAWYERS [BACK IN THE 70s FOR SURE] HAD TO HOLD HER OWN IN THEPUFFERYDEPARTMENT. WHICH OF US CAN HAVE EVEN THE SLIGHTEST INKLING OF WHAT THIS COURAGEOUS WOMAN HAS HAD TO LEARN AND ENDURE IN THE LAST 35 YEARS, AND I’LL TELL YOU, I SEE HER YEAR AND A HALF ON THE CURRENT CAMPAIGN ODYSSEY AS NOTHING LESS THAN EPIC AND HEROIC. HILLARY DOESN’T HAVE A CREDIBILITY PROBLEM, SHE’S GOT A CARING PROBLEM. SHE CARE’S TOO INTENSELY, NOT ABOUT POWER FOR HERSELF AND THECLINTON DYNASTY” [IF SHE LOSES, I PREDICT CHELSEA WILL BE OUR FIRST WOMAN PRESIDENT] BUT ABOUT HER RESPONSIBILITY TO ALL WOMEN PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE WHOSE SPIRITS AND POTENTIAL WILL BE RE-BORN WITH THE TECTONIC PARADIGM WHICH THE ELECTION OF A WOMAN PRESIDENT WILL REPRESENT. DURING THOSE PRECIOUS MOMENTS WHEN SHE HOLDS AN AUDIENCE OF RAPT SUPPORTERS WITHIN HER GRASP, WHAT MATTERS MOST OF ALL TO THESTORYTELLER”, ESPECIALLY ON AN UNCONSCIOUS LEVEL, IS THAT THE AUDIENCE LEAVE WITH A GUT LEVEL KIND OF CONNECTION TO THE REALITY OF HER LIFE JOURNEY AND THE POSSIBILITIES OF A HILLARY CLINTON PRESIDENCY. RECOUNTING AN EXPERIENCE SUCH AS THAT LANDING ON THE TARMAC IN WAR RAVAGED BOSNIA MUST PRESENT AN IRRESISTIBLE OPPORTUNITY OF THAT KIND. HER ROMANTICISED EMBELLISHMENT OF THAT DAY PROBABLY TYPIFIED HALF OF THE LANDINGS AT THE TUZLA AIRPORT IN THE PRIOR MONTH, AND THE KIND OF RISK THAT SHE HAD BEEN MENTALLY PREPARED TO TAKE AT THE TIME THE DECISION TO GO THERE WAS MADE. IF HILLARY WERE AN ARROGANT PATHOLOGICAL LIAR OF THE KIND DESCRIBED IN THE INTOLERANT POST ABOVE, THERE WOULD BE A HUNDRED SUCHGAFFESPOSTED ON U-TUBE AND BEING ENDLESSLY RECYCLED ON FOX, MSNBC, AND CNN.
By Michael Salling on 04/18/2008 4:50 pm
kay anderson
Clinton’s sniper fire story is the most fantastic story I’ve ever heard from a presidential candidate. I can never believe anything else she says. One writer has said that Hillary Clinton has always had a difficult relationship with the truth. But I believe she and Bill have borrowed a page from the Republican playbook: If you say it often enough and people see it on TV, eventually they will believe it. It’s just that this time she got caught!
By kay anderson on 04/23/2008 11:18 am
Claudia Archer
Hi wOw, Laugh or Cry , I am voting McCain. This candidate has a very victorious better half. There, is that enough verbiage. ClaudiaArcher
By Claudia Archer on 04/24/2008 8:03 pm
M Morgan
One of the issues, that affects gas price at the pump, is irresponsible rhetoric comments like that of Hillary’s who, to appease Israelis, threatened to “oblitrate” Iran; one of the most peaceful nations on the face of the earth. On going into a shop to buy an item that the shop carries, does it make sense to insult, threaten, and threat the shop-owner/manager with a condescending attitude? He or she, even if is in bad need of selling the item, would be reluctant to sell the item to such a savage blly. On the other hand, you [who treats him/her with respect and as equal, and on your entrance into the shop, say “Hi, how are you …”, would be considered as the favorite customer whom to the shop-owner/manager counts the secounds to do busness with; over and over again. You do not need to hold a gun to the head of the shop-owner/manager. Let us get all our bully-ing naval forces out of the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean. Press TV: http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=53119&sectionid=3510203 Hillary and Condi—any difference? Sat, 26 Apr 2008 01:18:20 Hillary and Condi—any difference? Several noted feminists have been using their mailing lists to get out the vote for Hillary Clinton—this is my response to them. Does it not matter to you that Clinton voted for the war against Iraq, that she did not have the judgment that millions upon millions of people throughout the world had to stand against Bush’s obvious deception. Does it not matter to you that she is now blaming the Iraqis for not stepping up to the plate - meaning not signing over their oil rights to us, does it not matter that in her war-provoking alliance with men in Congress, especially the right wing she voted to have the Iranian Army listed as a terrorist group, a step toward a US attack on Iran? or that she refused to support a ban on cluster bombs after a million of them, made and sent by the US, were dropped by Israel on villages and neighborhoods of Lebanon in 2006? Does it not matter to you that having turned over 4 million Iraqis - yes mostly women and children into refugees in a war she supported, she stands ready to do that to Iranian women and children? Does sisterhood have such a thin veneer that all of those Iraqi lives are forgetten in order to have a woman in the White House? Then why not Condoleezza Rice? Is there that much difference between them? (Courtesy Professor Kathleen Barry Kathy.barry@comcast.net and www.Counterpunch.com,) (Editor’s note: And what about Senator Clinton’s recent remarks about obliterating Iran should it launch a nuclear attack on Israel? Of course for her the fact that Iran does not have nuclear weapons is besides the point which is really to help set the stage for an eventual attack on the Islamic Republic. Not a small thing to threaten with murder 70m people—the warning itself sounds an awful lot like a war crime. Let the reader bear in mind that the Clinton White House years to which Hillary so tenaciously defends in her presidential campaign, also oversaw the killing of 1m Iraqis—not by military means primarily but through starvation and denial of medical supplies. The figure of 1m dead having been the number Pope John Paul II referred to, as have many other sources.)
By M Morgan on 04/25/2008 5:01 pm