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Conversation | 05/22/2008 5:42 pm

Whoopi the Decoder Finds Out Why We Get 'Taxed up the Behind'

© Shutterstock

Editor’s note: When people say it isn’t rocket science, ever wonder what it is that makes rocket science so darn hard? In our Decoder series, Whoopi Goldberg seeks out experts across a wide spectrum of fields to find out how things work, from the encryption on your iPod to the fine print on your tax bill. So next time you see a rocket, don’t be surprised if it’s one Whoopi built herself.

David Cay Johnston is a former writer for The New York Times and the Pulitzer Prize-winning author of Free Lunch.

WHOOPI: Here’s my first question. How is it possible that we are being taxed up the behind in such a way that no one realizes it? And the reason I say that is because you look at your bills – you know, your gas and electric bill, your phone bill, your cell phone bill. You get six or seven taxes that make no sense. Why is this OK? Why is this happening?

DAVID: Let me argue the case for why it’s done and then I’ll give you the other side of it.

WHOOPI: OK.

Click here to see just the numbers, crunched.

DAVID: If you only tax one thing – let’s say the only thing we taxed was your income, or the only thing we taxed was the house you live in, then people would find a way to get around that one tax. So you have to have an approach that taxes multiple things.

WHOOPI: So you’re telling me that basically the idea is people think people are going to cheat anyway, so we might as well just make sure they don’t have any money to cheat with?

DAVID: No, it doesn’t even involve cheating. It’s that people will simply organize their lives to get around a single tax. If there was only one tax it wouldn’t be hard to get around it.

WHOOPI: Really? Could you tell me how because I can’t figure it out.

DAVID: Well, let’s say that we taxed just wages — that’s what the flat tax proposal is. You wouldn’t pay tax on capital gains, interest, dividends, rents, royalties – most royalties. Some you would, some you wouldn’t. Well, if that’s the only tax we had then people who own a business, for example, would take a $1 salary and report everything as a capital gain — then they wouldn’t pay any taxes. You have to design the tax system to flow from the economic order; and what we have is a tax system that works against the economic order. I’ll come back to that in a second. Let me answer your question now. The reason we have all these other little taxes – your phone bill, your cell phone, your utility bill, the sales tax, all these other little taxes — is that they are perceived to be minor annoyances that the public will put up with. And the art of taxation is plucking the goose while not killing it and getting the maximum with the least amount of hissing from the goose.

WHOOPI: But do they realize that with everything that’s happening, that they are killing the goose?

DAVID: No. And I’m not sure you can make the case that they are. Taxes overall are 37 percent of the economy, net, in round figures. Figure a third – a little more than a third of the economy.

WHOOPI: But let’s take it on an individual basis. What is the tax for a middle-class person?

DAVID: For two-thirds of Americans – two-thirds of them – they pay more in payroll taxes, Social Security and Medicare taxes than they do in income taxes.

WHOOPI: OK. So this is every week, right?

DAVID: That’s right, and that’s a major part of the problem. In 1974 – now you and I were both working in 1974 — the maximum Social Security tax was about $327; it’s now going to be almost $6000. That’s an enormous increase. Even when you adjust for inflation, ‘74’s tax today would be about $1600, so it’s gone up about fourfold. And half of the decline in savings by Americans is attributable to the payroll tax collecting more than is needed to currently pay out benefits.

70 Reader Comments (so far…) Sign In or Register to comment

Jeanette Foresta
Thanks Whoopi for this thought provoking interview! I am not happy with this, but the war has a lot to do with it, if not everything to do with it. The people, and children of America don’t see anything on the war? When I was a kid I knew all to well about the war, and threats of war. We have too much superficial programming on TV. We very seldom even tune in when war news is on. We don’t want to see it, “it has nothing to do with my world,” we say. We live in our own world as a protection of our psyche, we must survive best we can, we are just using coping skills, mind magic, positive thinking. There are no marches against the war these days. It is like there is no war going on at all. Soldiers are in the war, and people are in the Mall? This is changing though. People are not buying like they were before. I am a casualty myself by losing my State job. Now I have no healthcare, and am having a hard time getting another job even in my field, which should be easy. Maybe Obama is the one for change, it seems baby boomers have voted in the oldest congress ever. If McCain is to make it, he needs to go on the war path of the baby boomer Elite. We need a Big change But fast!
By Jeanette Foresta on 05/22/2008 7:34 am
theCHEROKEErose
brad…will you take a HINT and pay attention to the forum you are in….
By theCHEROKEErose on 05/22/2008 8:59 am
brad berger
Sure as soon as the message gets out to kids and women take care to warn their own I am out of here for good.
By brad berger on 05/27/2008 8:17 am
Chrome Toe
Honestly the tax and economy issues scares me enough i almost couldn’t read this! The social security pay out info was fascinating. my kids are all in their twenties and working basically entry level type jobs. My 25 year old has this HUGE amount taken out of each of her checks. Way more than I thought she should for “taxes”. Now i know why! Makes me sad. the next question is… how do we fix it? Really? Can we ask this guy that?
By Chrome Toe on 05/22/2008 8:15 am
Ken Jarvis
NSTx - It would be SIMPLE IF WE HAD A NATIONAL SALES TAX, where ALL TAXES ARE PAID WHEN THE PURCHASE IS MADE. LVKen7 at Gmail dot com
By Ken Jarvis on 05/22/2008 8:22 am
K O
If only it were that simple, Ken. A national sales tax would be onerous for the tax payers on the lower rungs of the socio-economic ladder, as a much higher percentage of their earned income is spent. Your suggestion would exacerbate the current tax inequities that exist in the IRC.
By K O on 05/22/2008 10:23 am
Ken Jarvis
IT IS - “that simple” No Loopholes No Exemptions No records to keep No Audits to worry about NSTx is WORRY FREE April 15 Just another day If you REALLY want to discuss this, AND WE SHOULD - My Email address is LVKen7 at Gmail dot com
By Ken Jarvis on 05/23/2008 9:45 am
Ken Jarvis
What is the link to - Part 1. I missed it.
By Ken Jarvis on 05/22/2008 8:31 am
Marie McConnell
Thank you Ms. Goldberg for this interview. Our tax system sucks big time that’s for sure.It seems like the people who could use a tax break are the ones that seem to be out the most. That’s just not right and all these hidden taxes on our bills suck. We need to restructure our tax system. We need to also get something for the taxes we pay.To much of our tax money is wasted. We need some accountability.
By Marie McConnell on 05/22/2008 8:58 am
theCHEROKEErose
marie…whats with the ‘garbage’ language..most of our taxes are frivilous and some are weird and un-needed…we ‘get’ something for the taxes we pay…we get to be contributing citizens of this country…..
By theCHEROKEErose on 05/22/2008 9:02 am
G T
Im not into doing a rant about taxes, but if we expect the government to provide all these “free” services to everyone, we must expect that somebody has to pay for them. Guess who that will be??? Even without the war taxes will be high because of all the services people expect the government to provide.
By G T on 05/22/2008 10:40 am
phyllis Doyle Pepe
Johnston was on Bill Moyers and I found him informative; I thank Whoopi for this discussion. I would say we are in a pretty pickle, but ending this war might help a bit–––––DONCHA THINK???
By phyllis Doyle Pepe on 05/22/2008 10:57 am
Brooklyn Gal
I did not know people and companies could get away paying taxes with a flat tax structure. So, what is the solution for protecting the middle class and poor from having to pay the lion’s share?
By Brooklyn Gal on 05/22/2008 11:51 am
Frank Peterson
What’s the solution, Carol? 15% across the board income tax for everyone no exceptions. I’d do it but would anyone like it—no of course not. And it would never get past the self-serving people in congress. Exemptions for Corporations and the rich are what keeps the middle class losing ground and the slide will continue if the war still goes on. I don’t really know if there is an answer but ending the damned war would help immensely.
By Frank Peterson on 05/22/2008 5:34 pm
Frannie Em
Frank 5:34 They could do a flat tax and structure it correctly so there wasn’t cheating. I would be for a flat tax. How much does it cost to run the IRS anyway? What is it’s budget? Just think how much money we would save. Of course, think how many people would lose their jobs. Of course that would leave businesses and corps more money to create more jobs. What a concept.
By Frannie Em on 05/23/2008 12:32 am