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Conversation | 05/22/2008 5:42 pm

Whoopi the Decoder Finds Out Why We Get 'Taxed up the Behind'

© Shutterstock

Editor’s note: When people say it isn’t rocket science, ever wonder what it is that makes rocket science so darn hard? In our Decoder series, Whoopi Goldberg seeks out experts across a wide spectrum of fields to find out how things work, from the encryption on your iPod to the fine print on your tax bill. So next time you see a rocket, don’t be surprised if it’s one Whoopi built herself.

David Cay Johnston is a former writer for The New York Times and the Pulitzer Prize-winning author of Free Lunch.

WHOOPI: Here’s my first question. How is it possible that we are being taxed up the behind in such a way that no one realizes it? And the reason I say that is because you look at your bills – you know, your gas and electric bill, your phone bill, your cell phone bill. You get six or seven taxes that make no sense. Why is this OK? Why is this happening?

DAVID: Let me argue the case for why it’s done and then I’ll give you the other side of it.

WHOOPI: OK.

Click here to see just the numbers, crunched.

DAVID: If you only tax one thing – let’s say the only thing we taxed was your income, or the only thing we taxed was the house you live in, then people would find a way to get around that one tax. So you have to have an approach that taxes multiple things.

WHOOPI: So you’re telling me that basically the idea is people think people are going to cheat anyway, so we might as well just make sure they don’t have any money to cheat with?

DAVID: No, it doesn’t even involve cheating. It’s that people will simply organize their lives to get around a single tax. If there was only one tax it wouldn’t be hard to get around it.

WHOOPI: Really? Could you tell me how because I can’t figure it out.

DAVID: Well, let’s say that we taxed just wages — that’s what the flat tax proposal is. You wouldn’t pay tax on capital gains, interest, dividends, rents, royalties – most royalties. Some you would, some you wouldn’t. Well, if that’s the only tax we had then people who own a business, for example, would take a $1 salary and report everything as a capital gain — then they wouldn’t pay any taxes. You have to design the tax system to flow from the economic order; and what we have is a tax system that works against the economic order. I’ll come back to that in a second. Let me answer your question now. The reason we have all these other little taxes – your phone bill, your cell phone, your utility bill, the sales tax, all these other little taxes — is that they are perceived to be minor annoyances that the public will put up with. And the art of taxation is plucking the goose while not killing it and getting the maximum with the least amount of hissing from the goose.

WHOOPI: But do they realize that with everything that’s happening, that they are killing the goose?

DAVID: No. And I’m not sure you can make the case that they are. Taxes overall are 37 percent of the economy, net, in round figures. Figure a third – a little more than a third of the economy.

WHOOPI: But let’s take it on an individual basis. What is the tax for a middle-class person?

DAVID: For two-thirds of Americans – two-thirds of them – they pay more in payroll taxes, Social Security and Medicare taxes than they do in income taxes.

WHOOPI: OK. So this is every week, right?

DAVID: That’s right, and that’s a major part of the problem. In 1974 – now you and I were both working in 1974 — the maximum Social Security tax was about $327; it’s now going to be almost $6000. That’s an enormous increase. Even when you adjust for inflation, ‘74’s tax today would be about $1600, so it’s gone up about fourfold. And half of the decline in savings by Americans is attributable to the payroll tax collecting more than is needed to currently pay out benefits.

70 Reader Comments (so far…) Sign In or Register to comment

mary lou s
frannie, what if the businesses and corporations did what they usually do and just paid their top executives more and shipped more jobs overseas?
By mary lou s on 05/23/2008 12:57 pm
Frannie Em
Mary lou 12:57 Good question, that is one of the threats that is always over our heads. If they structured correctly, there would probably be ways to avoid that. What to do then? We are being taxed into the ground.
By Frannie Em on 05/23/2008 2:35 pm
Linda Myers
On my utilitiy bills alone, there is a stream of additional taxes including a franchise tax for the company itself, just wish I had a piece of the company I was helping to franchise, and the phone company seems to add a list of extra charges, that remain until they are requested to be removed, rather than not being there in the first place. The finer the print, the more that is paid. :-) I even had to dispute a ridiculous charge this year for “future gas usage” to the gas company. Unless you read close, you are being charged for expense that has not occured yet. Linda www.myspiritualwindows.info
By Linda Myers on 05/22/2008 12:28 pm
My Two Cents
I think people feel powerless to change the system, where do you begin and can we really change it ? We can elect someone whom we think will make changes that will benefit us. Our senators seem to be hard pressed to solve the problem of gas prices while the oil co profits continue to rise. Do we have to wait for a new administration to solve all of our economic problems ? There are a lot of brillant minds out there,one would think someone would step up and present solutions. Guess that is not how the system works !
By My Two Cents on 05/22/2008 1:13 pm
Bella Mia
Government is gouging the taxpayers. Here’s how it works in our town: We pay the highest property taxes in the country here in New Jersey. We pay about $8000 in taxes on a $300,000 home. And there are toll roads, and taxes and fees on almost everything you want to do. So when taxpayers recently voted down the school budget - what does the school cut back? Sports - so any child who wants to participate has to pay extra - an extra tax. However the school just hired a “curriculum organizer” a brand new position for $98,000/year to oversee two buildings with less than 1000 students. That’s right - there are only 2 schools in the district and under 1000 students. Government greed knows no limit - hence all the fees. Our goose is getting cooked.
By Bella Mia on 05/22/2008 1:22 pm
mary lou s
bella, it sounds as if your school system has at least one too many administrators. so much new school spending in the last few decades seems to be for administrators but not for teachers. we would all benefit from kids educated in reasonable (no more than 30) sized classes and well kept facilities. as for taxes, there were taxes well before the sixteenth amendment was passed. taxing income seems expedient, but maybe we need a mix of taxes. thank you, whoopi, for telling us about this.
By mary lou s on 05/22/2008 2:03 pm
Dorothy S
Something doesn’t add up. Here in NE Pa. a $300,000 home would pay $9,600 in property tax. (based on an assessed value of $75,000 which is 1/4 the street market value.) I thought NJ had higher property taxes……
By Dorothy S on 05/22/2008 3:49 pm
Frannie Em
Bella I agree with you and Mary lou - she said there are too many administrators. It is so true. How many of them does it take to screw in a light bulb. I have some friends that are teachers, and they don’t get why the administrators make so much. I think the trend we will see as more boomers retire and votes to raise bonds etc, won’t be passed because we retirees won’t be able to afford more tax.
By Frannie Em on 05/23/2008 2:41 pm
elaine oland
The only way to change any of this is for us to get involved. We must try to be well informed. Then talk back to the legislaters, state and federal. Write them, email them - call them - And most obvious of all, promote and then vote for candidates who are really really intelligent and honest…. just education isn’t enough - (what else do they do or have they done). Someone mentioned Bill Moyers —- great show and also informative is Charley Rose also on PBS late eve—— get a copy of What’s the Matter with Kansas by Tom Frank - ——
By elaine oland on 05/22/2008 2:22 pm
Linda Myers
This is a piece that I wrote when my daughter lost her baby. Linda www.myspiritualwindows.info A few days ago, was the third anniversary of my mother leaving this world. And thinking about the course of events in my own life over the last few years, I could better see the perfection that she chose also.Almost five years ago, my youngest daughter lost a baby in April. One of those strange times that a fetus just does not attach to the walls like it should.On Mother’s day that year we had a celebration for my daughter, planted a little Magnolia tree in the front yard.By the time we got it in the ground, it looked more like a Charlie Brown Tree. So small, and brittle. During the summer it did not do much, but it survived. When fall came it was still small and not showing signs of growth.In early November, we had a snowfall. The ground was covered in white. On the day the baby would have been born, I looked out the window, and on this little twig of a lifeless looking tree, six huge Magnolia blossoms were standing out there in the snow.The following March, my youngest daughter got pregnant again. This time everything was normal, but that spring, the little Magnolia tree died.As if it’s spirit had moved on. My granddaughter was due on Jan. 7, of the next year. On that morning, my mother went into cardiac arrest; she was revived and lived a few more days, and the baby still waited to come.On the night of Jan. 13, during my mother’s visitation Jayden entered the world. She carries her great-grandmother’s eyes, and personality.But all the steps leading up to that little girl’s birth, became very synchronistic in hind sight. And that is how I choose to live life, with synchronicity and staying aware to the world as it unfolds.Never a dull moment in doing so. No fear, just faith that those that are to come into my life will choose to do so, and those that a time has come to journey elsewhere in the walk, will also do so. And for that, I just love life.When Jayden was born, I planted a Weeping Willow tree to replace the little Magnolia tree. The little Weeping Willow is now growing into a very large beautiful tree. Jayden’s tree.
By Linda Myers on 05/22/2008 2:35 pm
Brooklyn Gal
Dear Linda, I hope you don’t mind, but since the topic here was taxes, I copied and pasted your beautiful comment to the one on loss of a chid. http://www.wowowow.com/post/to-lose-a-child
By Brooklyn Gal on 05/22/2008 4:28 pm
Linda Myers
Sorry I goofed on the post. :-) Linda
By Linda Myers on 05/22/2008 10:34 pm
Frannie Em
Whoopi Thank you for this article. The thing that gets me is how much they have screwed around with Social Security and Medicare. The funds are collected, and when a social program ( I am not against social programs) that has been approved with no money to fund it needs money, they borrow it from soc sec and medicare. They have done that for years. I think even before Reagan came into office by the democrat controlled congress. They vote to have it approved, yet which congressmen go back and check on the departments that oversee it what they voted for? They voted - and now just walk away and stick it to the taxpayer? They promise the voter, then there is no money in the budget for it, so they borrow. There is also so much medicare fraud it is ridiculous. Why not clean that up and save the taxpayers millions? On top of that how much does it cost to run the over administrated medicare bureaucracy? How much does it cost to run all the over administration of this bloated government? Years ago I helped my parents with their medical reimbursements they had SAG as their primary insurance, which was pretty straightforward and medicare as their secondary - I got so much incorrect paperwork from them it was ridiculous. It was hard to get answers when I called. It took so much time to get the correct reimbursement. But the amount of mail they sent over and over again was amazing. How much is the postage just on their mistakes. My sister-in-law is a nurse who says many of the doctors she has worked for inflate their bills with treatments they didn’t perform so that they would at least get paid close to what they would make privately. The inmates have taken over the asylum. It is so aggravating to me as a small business owner and running the finances in my household. I have to cut and budget to make sure there is no debt burden for our business, home or retirement. WE have to get by on less and less, and even though the govt doesn’t straighten itself out, it can give itself pay raises. Unfortunately, our govt officials don’t know have the skills of women running households, and they don’t have accountability. I am so sick of this.
By Frannie Em on 05/22/2008 2:57 pm
CAROLINE MuLVEY
Frannie,afterr I read whoopie’s information and others on this site I feel so qulity for having to have socialsecurity. but I can not work yet when I can I would do so in a minute. I told Mediacare that I was going to go on my husbands insurance they still made me keep part “A” Our insurance is evpensive but if me leaving medicare then maybe someone else could use it and hear in nj we pay 7% tax on everything that is not food. I t is crazy how thr tax works I hope that one day someone will figure out how to make it all batter. lol
By CAROLINE MuLVEY on 05/23/2008 1:55 am
Frannie Em
Caroline Why are you feeling guilty. That is what medicare is for. It doesn’t mean that your doctor overbills. Some do, but certainly not all. YOU worked and paid into medicare. Your situation is exactly why medicare was set up. Your husband pays into medicare. The government gets millions and billions each month from employees paying in to medicare. My complaint is the way they manage it. If they didn’t borrow from it, there would be no social security problem. If it was still a pay as you go system, our money would sit in the soc sec fund and earn millions on interest, and just keep building. There is not shortage of money, just the management of it and corruption of the system.
By Frannie Em on 05/23/2008 2:53 pm