Q&A | 10/21/2009 7:30 am

No Slacks in the Office: Gail Collins and Lesley Stahl Relive the Birth of Feminism

With the release of When Everything Changed, Gail Collins’s new book, Lesley and Gail recount the amazing revolution of American women from 1960 to the present … from female-free airplane routes to Gloria Steinem’s reaction to Sarah Palin’s brand of feminism.

By Lesley Stahl

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LESLEY: So, Gail Collins, thank you very much for joining us today to talk about your new book When Everything Changed: The Amazing Journey of American Women from 1960 to the Present, which I have to say I loved and read and learned, because it’s about really the Women’s Movement from 1960 to today, which I obviously lived through; but there’s so much I didn’t know. Let me start by asking you a big question. This is the Women’s Movement – the movement for women’s equality. First question: Did we win? Have we achieved equality?

GAIL: We definitely won. I’m not quite sure I know exactly what equality is, so I’m not sure that I would be willing to go that far. But to look back, which it’s hard to do, I was talking to the people who’ve been there. You forget what it was actually like. And, for perspective, you really have to go back and look at, say, 1960. And it’s such a stunner on every possible level.

LESLEY: Give us some examples.

GAIL: My very favorite one, and it is not the most profound by any means, is the one that I start the book with: Lois Rabinowitz was a secretary in Manhattan and in the summer of 1960 made history, or at least headlines, when she was expelled from traffic court in Manhattan for attempting to pay a parking ticket while wearing slacks. And the judge went nuts. She was defaming the honor of the traffic court. And this was true, and so many women I’ve talked to who remembered back on those days, how awful it was. If you worked in the Post Office you had to wear a skirt. And it was extremely uncomfortable; extremely cold for some women. And just the right to wear sensible clothes was completely withheld.

LESLEY: Oh, right.

GAIL: And then there is the executive express, the plane flight United used to have from New York to Chicago every day, and it was men only; a woman could not buy a seat on the executive express – too bad if you wanted to go to Chicago at that point in time. And they would serve the men these big, huge steaks and cigars and the stewardesses were taught how to lean over and light the cigars and so on. And whenever I tell that story somebody says, "Well wasn’t that illegal?" Nothing was illegal back then. It was perfectly legal to say, "Well we don’t hire women for those jobs," or as Newsweek used to say, "Women don’t write. They only research."

LESLEY: I can remember being on a flight and the pilot came on, and it was a woman, and a bunch of men stood up and walked off the flight. And I know stories about people going to doctors, and if the doctor was a woman they turned around and walked out. And this isn’t just men walking out either. But when you say "we won," you’re just saying that some of these things that you got people to remember seem ridiculous? Is that what you mean by "we won"?

GAIL: No, I mean that in 1960 the vision of women’s limitations of the proper role for women in society was not at bottom much different than it was, say, in 1200 or 1600, but there was the same vision of what women were, and what women could do, that existed throughout Western civilization. And it changed in my lifetime and your lifetime, Lesley, in this tiny sliver of time that we live in. And that knocks me out every time I think about it. Women being born today are going to have all kinds of problems, many of them having to do with trying to balance family and career, I will tell you, but that kind of sense of limitations that existed throughout civilization and society just is not there for them. And that’s so huge.

LESLEY: And is it irreversible?

58 Reader Comments (so far…) Sign In or Register to comment

Early in my Army career, I occasionally encountered men who thought women really shouldn’t be there, or at least not in leadership positions. They would never dare say so to my face, but word would get around. I dealt with it by completely ignoring it, and simply holding them to their jobs and the regulations. So long as I got the proper behavior, I did not care one whit what was going on in their heads, and that seemed the most effective approach (and one they came to respect).

Conversely, the other female lieutenants at my officer basic course wanted to wear ball gowns to the unit dining-in (a formal dress-blues affair, heavy with military traditions, for the unit officers only… no guests). I pushed back HARD on that: "I’m an officer and I am going to dress like one." Their answer: "We’re women first, and officers second." My retort: "Well, I’m an OFFICER first. I don’t care what you want to wear, I am wearing my blues." Not one of those women made a career of the Army. Not one. Sometimes women’s attitudes about themselves are the limiting factor.

By Lila Kuh on 10/21/2009 11:31 am

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Both Gail and Lesley say in the wOw article that they feel lucky to be living "now," in this time. I know they haven’t forgotten, but I feel compelled to add: It’s not only "now," but it’s here. How many women not of the West, women across all this great world still need to realize their own freedom, their own power?

By rocky rocky on 10/21/2009 12:24 pm

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It’s not yet time to relax, no time at all to take it for granted. Not when it takes the force of a president and the majority party to pass a law as basic and fair as "equal pay for equal work."

By rocky rocky on 10/21/2009 12:27 pm

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I think you’re absolutely correct, it IS the HERE that matters. Not long ago, I put a post on this site, and a man from India responded. I can’t even remember the topic, but his final comment to me was, ‘Well, I ‘ll bet if you got on a plane and the pilot was a woman, you wouldn’t feel comfortable, right?’ I bowed my head and said a prayer to God, one of thanks for my own country of residence and a prayer for the safety of all the women in third world countries who continue to be persecuted.

By Sally K on 10/21/2009 1:06 pm

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well said rocky.

By macwoof woof on 10/21/2009 6:33 pm

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Thanks, macwoof woof. Always happy to hear from you.

By rocky rocky on 10/21/2009 6:52 pm

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Great progress has been made, but we are loosing ground with the actions of young females today…They are using their body rather than their mind. I loved Gloria’s reaction to Sarah.

By Pat 10\22\09

By patricia rhodes on 10/22/2009 1:15 pm

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I do not think that girls of my generation are using their bodies rather than their minds. It always saddens me when the older folks claimed to have worked hard for us to gain equality and the right of choice, but then they demean us for the choices we make.

By R.J.B. Reed on 10/23/2009 12:31 pm

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WoW indeed!This is a topic that generates endless stories.My Mom was engaged at 21 and when she showed her diamond engagement ring to her boss he gave her notice,no married woman could work for the firm in 1948.This was not the same boss who called her in for dictation one day and dropped his pants and asked her opinion of his genetalia.I was horrifed when she told me that story and frightened for her but she just said "we all knew he was nuts and ignored him."

I was married at 23 in 1975 and had a very good credit rating and two credit cards in my name.When I went to pay off the department store card and have my name changed to my married name(the 2nd stupidest thing I have ever done was change my name)the credit manager asked for my card ,cut it up in front of me and told me I would need my husbands permission to have a new card.Needless to say I never shopped in that store again and was smugly happy when they went out of business a few years ago.

After my divorce I was working and raising my son on my own and I really wanted to go back to my maiden name but was worried how my 4 year old son would feel if we had differant last names.When I asked him he looked at me with his wise old eyes and said "its your name Mommy".

There are many stories and I am very glad that young woman today have the freedom to be and do what they want,I think those of us who came before should say "you’re welcome".

By Karin Dobson on 10/21/2009 12:31 pm

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I will forever be indebted to the women before me and recognize all that’s been accomplished.

Sadly, I still work in an sexist environment and face oppression-sexism often. My first engineering job in the ‘90’s was at Intel. The culture had to change, the jokes had to stop simply because I was in the room. Trust me when I tell you that I didn’t feel very welcome. And, the jokes didn’t have to stop in only closed rooms, it was everywhere; I’m 5’2" and shorter than the cube walls, they never saw me coming.

As for maintaining a career and child-rearing in the ‘60’s, my mom worked up until giving birth and then returned to work two weeks later (though, I think don’t think she would have done it different whether laws were in place, or not ) .

By holly shawn on 10/21/2009 2:06 pm

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In high school, I and my best friend were barred from appearing in our senior class picture because we wore pants that day. When I worked in the office of a western wear company in the mid-70’s, the Italian owner stated "My women don’t wear pants." And we didn’t, until right before I quit in 1976. When I asked for a raise at this same company, my supervisor said "You’re sitting on a million dollars!!" In 1992, while working at another company, I called in sick with the flu. My boss said "And if I get it, I won’t have had the benefit of sleeping with you first!" I was fired when I went back, and I think it was because I’d had a small hissy fit on the phone when he said it, and they were afraid I was going to take it further. I did file for and receive unemployment benefits, the first time anyone had won a case against this company…sweet revenge, and although I almost immediately found another job, they had to contend with higher unemployment insurance rates. When I was married the first time for a whole four months, my then-hub told me (in front of his mother) that if I were ever raped, he’d want nothing more to do with me. His mother and I were shocked. Later when I was divorcing him, a prospective employer asked me if I were "over" the divorce yet, implying that my work might suffer. The list goes on and on….I don’t know if women will ever enjoy full equality. From personal experience with my own family (brothers and father) it seems to be inherent in mens’ DNA that somehow, somewhere, however minute it appears to them, women are not equal, never were and never will be. How does one fight it? Having my own private feelings and keeping them to myself doesn’t help, but neither does speaking up ~ then I’m just a harridan looking for a fight.

By Karen Prigmore on 10/21/2009 2:21 pm

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Back in 1970’s I heard that most girls were taught to accept that the only reason to go to college was to meet and marry a man who would make good money. You might study hard and pass with A’s but you’ll never get a real job, so look pretty for the guys so you can find a good one while you’re there. And IF you didn’t get married and actually had to work, then it was usually a secretary and prey for every working male out there.

Fortunately for me my Dad thought there isn’t anything a man can do that a woman couldn’t do. He started teaching me very early how to do everything. He taught me so I could be self sufficient and not need anyone. When It came to discussing anything, He always treated me as his equal and his friend. I look back on it now, and realize my Dad was all for the feminist movement, where everyone is equal.

By June Guhl on 10/21/2009 3:22 pm

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I guess my mom was a true pioneer back in the day. She broke her leg in 3 places once while skiing and was stuck in a cast for 6 months. When the cast was finally removed for good her leg was as white as snow, super skinny from lack of exercise, and since she wasn’t able to shave the hair was really long. She was a teacher and at that time she had to wear skirts, hose, and heels. Well, she refused to follow the dress code because her formerly broken leg was unsightly and she wore pants. From then on female teachers in her school district have been allowed to wear pants. She wasn’t trying to change the rules but she did and teachers in Cali have her to thank for it.

By Laurel Sayler on 10/21/2009 3:58 pm

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This thanks goes out to all of the women who kicked the living Sh*T out of the doors and ceilings to give me the chance to do anything I wanted to do… especially my mom.

By Jennifer Kamienski on 10/21/2009 5:04 pm