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Q&A | 10/23/2009 3:00 am

Living Legend Madonna: 'She Has Exposed Her Body, But Not Her Soul,' by Liz Smith

wOw’s Liz Smith shares a piece she wrote for Q, the Quest magazine quarterly, spotlighting the most successful — and perhaps most misunderstood — female rock artist of all time.
Q Magazine

"This is who I am/like it or not" goes the lyrics to one of her recent songs. So true! Because like it or not, Madonna remains, after a quarter-century, a fact of our daily lives. Just the other day, photos from Italy of Madonna, her children and her beautiful young lover, Jesus Luz, were all over the place. This is being over?!

On the personal side, I have always found Madonna warm, without projecting a phony intimacy, funny, gracious — even if the situation might warrant otherwise. I come away from each encounter feeling oddly protective. This mythological symbol of Fame is really a good girl. She is trying to make sense of her life, tend to her family, experience her spirituality and satisfy her unbending artistic instincts as well as the demands of her fans. Shockingly, I have found her … nice, that most prosaic compliment. (This has been my Madonna experience. To others who have found her less tractable, less vulnerable? Leave her to heaven.)

She behaved, always, like she was somebody, even when she was less than nobody. If she was insecure, few ever saw it.

The first time I really interviewed her, for TV, we sat chatting amiably before the cameras rolled. She suddenly said, "You’re not afraid of me. I like that." I replied, "Madonna, I’ve interviewed Elizabeth Taylor, now that can be scary, because she only says ‘yes’ or ‘no’!" She loved that. (Madonna can be similarly matter-of-fact in her replies.)

I asked her once why so many of her songs in recent years seem to examine the pros and cons of fame. She said: "I guess I’m always taking it apart and dissecting it, Because I — and everyone who achieves public recognition — am always at odds with it. One minute you are so grateful you have an audience and people are paying attention. The next you feel over-analyzed and invaded. But I’ve come to terms with that part. I ask rhetorically now, maybe when I’m tired, ‘Is it worth it?’ Fame is really an illusion, a trick. It can’t last. But I am going to blaze out and give the best illusion I can!"

And what of her age (51) and retirement, which the media wants to push her into? Madonna sighs deeply: "Oh, please! Why should there be a time limit on working or giving of yourself? Or on love and looking attractive? Or trying to give back and make a saner world? Look, work isn’t everything, because if it was, I’d never have tried marriage, I never would never have had children. But one set of circumstances does not complete you. Maybe nothing ever does. So you work on your life and you work on your work and you try to live every single day like it’s your last. And you try to be better, to yourself and to others. I don’t always succeed. But I try and it’s my goal."

And then Madonna added, "Liz, I’ll retire when you do. But I think we are going to be the last gals at the rodeo!"

47 Reader Comments (so far…) Sign In or Register to comment

vicki fred
Insecure and vulnerable are what my instincts have always told me about Madonna.  We are the same age and I have casually followed her career and life.  At times I have cheered for her innovative talent and others times I’ve been reviled by her behavior.  She has "nerve" or "balls" that is for sure which can at times be endearing and others offensive. I admire that she seems to seek self-enlightenment and that her "rodeo balls" must be sagging after what all she has put them through and she keeps on going!  Ye Haw!  I’ve been told on occasion that I myself have balls…"balls of steel"!
By vicki fred on 10/23/2009 3:58 am
Belinda Joy

What is it about Madonna I can’t bring myself to overcome?

On the surface she is exactly what we WoW women look to as an example of success. Goodness knows her personal life is identical to most in Hollywood or the "celebrity world" (Promiscuity, jumping from religion to religion, relationship issues, living lavish and excessive lives, etc etc.) but so what? I can think of so many celebrities who mirror her overall life that I adore. So why can’t I feel about Madonna as Liz and others do?

I find the way I look at Madonna and perceive her curious because it reveals how judgemental I can be but NOT in a fair and balanced manner. I think there is a big part of me that admires strong, assertive women who are in control of their lives. I love them! So when I see a woman that on the surface seems that way, but I see areas of weakness such as with choices in men, spirituality paths and family choices…..they are diminished in my eyes. All of which I see in Madonna.

Yet I have a hard time accepting her life choices and her success as an actress and entertainer. I adore George Clooney, but he is no monk. In my day to day life I would view a man like him as flawed. Yet he gets a pass everytime with me. Why?  This is just another issue for me to work on in my attempt to grow emotionally.

By Belinda Joy on 10/23/2009 4:55 am
Mr. Wow

Dear Belinda, do you mind if I jump in here?  Well, silly for asking, since I’ve decided I will.  As Deber B. said, you either like Madonna or you don’t.  It’s okay not to.  You really have nothing to overcome.  I think the heart of your problem is the heart of Liz Smith’s article—Madonna vigorously refuses to show much vulnerability.  Quite the opposite.  Her entire career has been "I don’t care what you think, I’m doing this (whatever "outrage" she was perpetrating) and you can look the other way if you don’t like it."  Enough people looked to make her a millionaire many times over.  As for morality, I never judge unless murder or abuse of children is involved.  I’m not religious myself, but more power to people who search in that area. (Although I think Kaballa is ridiculous.) She is a polarizing figure and you needn’t wonder too much why you can’t warm to her. 

 I was about to mention somebody hugely popular and hugely hated who I’ll never warm to, but I’d throw the thread way off. 

By Mr. Wow on 10/23/2009 9:01 am
Belinda Joy

Thanks for sharing your insights Mr. Wow.

I think the reason why I try to understand why I don’t warm to some people like Madonna is my desire not to be a hypocrite. Yuck!  You can call me all the names you want, but for some reason I despise being seen as hypocritical. And because it is true I accept other celebrities who live, act and believe as Madonna does, I feel hypocritical not accepting her as well.

But in the final analysis as you point out it really doesn’t matter. For me, I don’t care what Madonna or anyone else says about not caring how they are viewed by others (I always have my doubts about people who say that) but this isn’t about her, it’s about me, and my choice to be less judgemental and accepting of others. I’m not religious either, I would say I am more spiritual (my days of being religious are now gone), and my primary objective is to be a good person by my terms. And being a hypocrite on this or any other subject, stands in my way of my objective.

By Belinda Joy on 10/23/2009 10:15 am
Richard Bassett

      Well said Belinda & Mr WOW. In terms of Madonna’s personal life, I think that she (like Elizabeth Taylor) has always believed that she’s never had to explain anything to anyone; that she was accountable only to herself and  to the loved ones in her life. Absent were exaggerated publicity stunts generated for the sole purpose of satisfying her need for staying in the public eye. She has never had to resort to that. If her beliefs were controversial, then so be it. And if Kabbalah (now) brings her some comfort and joy, filling in some of the blanks in her life, then I think that there is nothing wrong with that. But it has been her professional life, especially in the past dozen years or so, that has been a bit stale and nondescript.  In the 1980’s/1990’s, the arc of her career rose progressively. It seemed to have leveled off right around the time of “Evita”. At that time, he had received critical acclaim (professionally) when she lost her squeaky pop-star voice and was able to successfully handle more difficult vocal material. Her career could have risen to phenomenal heights.  But, most likely due to the fact that she had been overlooked by the Academy, she slipped back into her much more familiar ‘dance music’. Don’t get me wrong. I love her dance music but in twenty-five years, there hasn’t been a lot of progression. She career simply did not improve when it was supposed to. Yes, she has reinvented herself ‘physically’ over the years by has done very little in evolving ‘professionally’. After ‘Evita’, it was stated that Madonna was returning to her….roots. Dance music. In other words, there came a point in her career where she could have excelled (as is the case with most of the very talented ones in the industry), but she regressed. Much of her hype now is not so much for the new ground that she has broken, but more for her past controversial reputation. And that is the aspect of her life that troubles me. She embraced the philosophical practices of Kabbalah directly after the ‘Evita” phase of her life. Maybe it was needed then as a cushion to soften the blow of a career that had started to arc (sadly) downward.

By Richard Bassett on 10/23/2009 3:19 pm
Mr. Wow
Elizabeth Taylor was the original "I don’t care" girl.  She took what she wanted.  Men, money, drink, food, jewels.  She "re-invented" herself in 1984 with her AIDS activism, a sincere concern.  But it is that brazen woman in too-tight capri pants and full Cleopatra make-up, strolling the streets of Rome with Richard Burton, that the world will remember.
By Mr. Wow on 10/23/2009 3:34 pm
Baby  Snooks

Through the years I’ve wondered about this image she has and honestly I think she was just guided by her passion for life.  Not a bad thing, really, although you can suffer in the "public eye" as a result of it.  Ingrid Bergman did which some forget but  Ingrid Bergman had that same ability to live for today and not look back that probably is the one thing people really admire most about Elizabeth Taylor.  It’s not really a matter of "I don’t care" but a matter of falling captive to love. And life.

Personally I forgive her all the transgressions. Including her making sailors blush.  Beneath the persona is this absolutely fabulous heart that has no limits to its love for others - I was told that when her secretary turned publicist and really good friend through it all was in the last stages of breast cancer, Elizabeth the friend flew Chen Sam out to California and took care of her in her final days. That to me sums up Elizabeth Taylor best.  And always will. 

By Baby Snooks on 10/23/2009 5:24 pm
Anais P
Hi, Belinda: I think the difference between Madonna and Clooney is that he projects a public persona of warmth and humor who does not take himself seriously. Madonna comes off as cold (she does not smile nearly as often as Clooney) and serious. I don’t know if either persona is what either person is really like. One more thing: Madonna does not come off as self-deprecating, which Clooney consistently does, and it’s quite appealing to the public. Madonna turned me off when she did the sex book. I like sex to be treated as something romantic and mysterious, so the in-your-face attitude of the book just made her repellant. She did redeem herself somewhat in my eyes with her appealing performance in "A League of Her Own." Too bad she couldn’t find more roles like that one.
By Anais P on 10/23/2009 9:14 am
Belinda Joy

You hit the nail on the head Anais! That is exactly when I began to dislike her, when she did the sex book. Given I am FAR from being a prude when it comes to sex, I do have a problem seeing women (or men) behave in what I call reckless when it comes to sex. I could elaborate, but I am sure my definitions of this will offend some on this site.

And in this discussion as I stated in my response to Mr. Wow, lies my hypocrisy on this subject. I loved Marilyn Monroe, I love Sophia Loren and both for the most part made their careers on the back (pardon the pun) of sexiness and sex appeal. Yet theirs was veiled where Madonna seems raw and in your face. A sort of difference in labeling one as a femme fetale’ and another a slut.

By Belinda Joy on 10/23/2009 10:27 am
Susan Crawford
Belinda, you always write something fascinating, and nothing is more fascinating than your honest and frank response to this article about the ever-provocative Madonna. I feel as you: I want very much to like the fact that Madonna is a survivor, a trailblazer, a chameleon who is never "down and out", a woman in control. These are things I deeply admire and am grateful for - when I see them in any other context except Madonna’s. And that bothers me. Like you, I judge her harshly. I did not like the sex book. I did not appreciate the faux-British accent and lady of the manor attitude when she married Guy Ritchie. But who am I to judge? Why can’t I admire what is truly admirable about this woman? So she’s sexy and confident and surrounds herself with a protective shell that makes her seem impervious to criticism. I like those qualities in so many others. I wish I had more of them myself. Count me as one who also wonders why I cannot surmount the innate shudder I feel when Madonna reinvents herself yet again. You know, maybe I would like to see just a little bit of human feeling from her once in a while. Maybe an unscripted, random moment of pure joy or deep, personal emotion would be just the ticket. But that would NOT be Madonna, I guess. And that’s why I DO love Mr. Clooney, who expresses his zest for life, his spontaneity and his enjoyment so openly. I’m always in favor, too, of class over sass. But if one can blend the two, as have some great grande dames such as Bacall, Stanwyck, Mirren and Streep - I am SO there. Madonna? Not so much.
By Susan Crawford on 10/23/2009 2:35 pm
Mr. Wow

Dear Susan…people who are famous give so much, and have so much taken without their permission.  What many ask for from Madonna—vulnerability, obvious emotion—is something she chooses not to show.  That’s her truly private life. WE would feel better if we saw that, comforted by her weakness.  But for all Madonna latching onto trends, the one she hasn’t embraced is emotional exhibitionism.  She won’t cry, don’t ask her. 

 By the way,  I hated, hated, hated the Sex book. Boring.  I did not think her accent was odd, considering she married a Brit and lived in England for eight years.  The last time I went to Alabama I was talkin’ Deep South within two days. I’d rather she not tour again.  Enough with all that. But…do we feel that way about The Rolling Stones?  Or Mr. Paul McCartney, who I caught on Letterman, singing on the roof of the Ed Sullivan Theater?  Lifted, dyed and dressed like a kid.  I do feel that way, but as long as it’s okay for middlle-aged men to make fools of themselves onstage…  Bruce Springsteen’s pushing his act a bit, at this point.

By Mr. Wow on 10/23/2009 3:16 pm
Chrome Toe
Maybe Clooney gets a pass Belinda cuz he’s smokin hot lol.. not to mention he plays on his nice guy image big time. Madonna has never once attempted to be characterized as "nice" in the media. for some reason we public want our stars to be both humble and nice for some reason. so the ones who appear to be whether they are or not… get passes from us. Madonna hasn’t ever played the nice nor the humble card. well… as she aged she made some attempts at humble.
By Chrome Toe on 10/23/2009 9:36 am
Scarlett Ohara Mitchell
Belinda, so well written, and I agree totally. :-)
By Scarlett Ohara Mitchell on 10/23/2009 10:29 am
Lauriate Roly

Belinda Joy, another super comment from you. So well written and in my view, right on. Madonna reminds me of a girl that used to go to my school, (on the girl’s side), who was well known by most of my fellow students, (on the boy’s side). That particular girl always had a kind of dirty look, and I don’t mean she wasn’t clean. I mean “dirty” like in a “dirty joke” . Fact is, she was always immaculately clean, very good looking, and very alluring…but, a little bit loose, to say the least. Madonna always reminds me of that “dirty” girl. (another strange peculiarity about that girl in my school, whenever I was near her, I noticed a faint aroma from her that was very similar to the smell of the boys side of the school).

Belinda Joy, if you are not already doing so, besides the books you are writing, you should be writing a column for some popular media publication or articles for broadcasting shows. I always enjoy reading your popular comments. LR.

By Lauriate Roly on 10/23/2009 11:36 am
deber B

There’s absolutely nothing at all fascinating, attractive or admirable about Madonna in my opinion.   I find her rather pathetic.   There are other entertainers who are far more talented, respected and admired who don’t have to resort to the degrading theme Madonna offers her fans.  

I was never a fan….and never will be.    Some people analyze way too much on an unimportant topic.     Either you like Madonna or you don’t.

By deber B on 10/23/2009 7:21 am