Sign in to wowOwow

Enter the email address that you used when registering at wowOwow.
The password field is case sensitive. Click here if you have forgotten your password.

Please register for wowOwow

Newsletter subscriptions
Sign up to receive wowOwow's weekly newsletter and get our best picks delivered right to your inbox. Our newsletter content is hand-picked by the wowOwow editorial team and provides the top features, news, and commentary from our site. Subscribing to our newsletter is free and safe. We will never share your email or other information with a third-party without your direct consent.
By registering, you indicate that you have read and agree
with our privacy policy and terms of service.

Nancy Pelosi on Torture | 04/27/2009 12:25 pm

What Did She Know About 'Torture'? Nancy Pelosi on the Defensive

By The Staff at wowOwow.com
© Getty Images

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi appears to be on the defensive over what exactly she knew — and when she knew it — about the Bush administration’s "enhanced interrogation" techniques.

The California Democrat befuddled some reporters, Republicans and others last week when she gave what Politico says were some "convoluted answers" to reporters about the interrogations. Now Republicans have jumped at the chance to pummel Pelosi’s insistence that she didn’t know what was going on. CIA Chief Porter Goss said she must be suffering from "amnesia" — since he was with her in 2002 when they were briefed by the CIA on the techniques.

Goss wrote over the weekend:

I am slack-jawed to read that members claim to have not understood that the techniques on which they were briefed were to actually be employed; or that specific techniques such as ‘waterboarding’ were never mentioned. It must be hard for most Americans of common sense to imagine how a member of Congress can forget being told about the interrogations of Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed. In that case, though, perhaps it is not amnesia but political expedience.

A Pelosi adviser told Politico that the speaker knew the GOP was going to come after her, and that they likely will again once another batch of alleged torture photos comes out. No doubt that’s going to stir up yet another political mess about how the U.S. treated terror suspects.

The Washington Times reports today that Obama’s release of the CIA memos on interrogation techniques last week, and his recent acquiescence to a bipartisan review panel to look into those aspects of Bush’s presidency, has caused such a furor, even some congressional Democrats want it to just go away. Although, it seems Obama is backing off of that stance now, saying we need to insted look forward. And the newspaper agrees:

The politicization of policy differences has been a fact of life in Washington since the Watergate era, but in the past one could reasonably expect that such political warfare would end when a new administration commenced. Investigatory panels, such as the ‘Commission of Inquiry’ called for by Sen. Patrick Leahy, Vermont Democrat, would represent an unprecedented escalation of political warfare in the American system. Proponents of such tribunals exhibit a spirit of political retribution not seen since the end of the Civil War.

What do you think? Should we have a so-called "truth commission" to look into alleged Bush-era misdeeds, or should the country move on and focus on other things, like the economy?

301 Reader Comments (so far…) Sign In or Register to comment

Kelly In Texas

Roger…I don’t care how many times they were waterboarded, they walked away unharmed, our citizens did not. I have no comment on your supposed information about torture and death at Gitmo, my inclination to disbelieved your statement. I will have to do more research on this.

I do not consider waterboarding torture. You better take a long hard look at real evil. It is the Taliban and they intend to kill us no matter if we waterboard or not. Whatever it takes….that’s what I say.

By Kelly In Texas on 04/27/2009 7:43 pm
Roger from Ohio

You may not consider waterboarding torture, but that doesnt mean you are right. Also, your opinion doesnt really matter…. if you were to waterboard someone you would go to jail….. if on the stand you said you didnt think it was wrong, you would still go to jail.

The real evil are the people that justify human rights abuse. If you give the ok for Americans to torture people for safety,  then you also give your ok for Americans to be torture…… shameful.

By Roger from Ohio on 04/30/2009 10:57 pm
Kelly In Texas

Roger…now, it is. When it was applied in 2002-2006 it wasn’t.

Human rights abuse? Get real…waterboarding is mandatory for our OWN SEAL teams training. When you show me people maimed, beheaded, severely beaten, severely injured, killed…then you’re talking torture.

Shameful is what Obama has done now. Obviously, he doesn’t understand the real world. Compared to our enemies waterboarding is a time out.

I’m not ashamed of one damn thing that I have said, nor am I ashamed of the government making the choices that kept us safe. I AM ashamed of the ridiculous citizens that live in the utopia of their minds. I wish that they would move elsewhere and take that child Obama with them.

By Kelly In Texas on 05/01/2009 1:13 am
Rudi G.

Kelly, John McCain completely disagrees with you. Here’s what he said on Fox News:

FOX news reader: Kahlid Sheik Muhammed, the confessed mastermind of 9/11, [was waterboarded] 183 times. Too much?

JOHN MCCAIN: It’s unacceptable. It’s unacceptable. One is too much. Waterboarding is torture, period. I can assure you that once enough physical pain is inflicted on someone, they will tell that interrogator whatever they think they want to hear. And most importantly, it serves as a great propaganda tool for those who recruit people to fight against us.

John McCain says he gave false information when he was tortured. For example, when the Vietnamese demanded that he give them the names of the men in his unit, he gave them the names of the starting players for the Green Bay Packers.

The SERE experts — the military unit that waterboards the cadets as part of their training in case they are ever captured and tortured — told the Bush officials in charge of writing the torture manual in July 2002 that waterboarding  was a) torture and b) ineffective because torture subjects will lie to make the waterboarding stop.

There is not one iota of evidence or credible information that torturing the terror suspects saved a single life. The one story that was floated — that torturing a suspect stopped the shoe bomber who was going to blow up LA’s Liberty Tower (which Bush mistakenly called the "Liberty Tower") — was proven to be a lie when it was revealed that the suspect was tortured months after the alleged Library Tower shoebombing incident was supposed to have taken place. 

As for rebranding waterboarding, where the hell have you been? The Bush offiicals took a page from their own Orwellian playbook and renamed waterboarding from "torture" to an "enhanced interrogtation technique. It was this propagandizing that is at the root of the debate we’re having now. There was no question waterboarding was torture until the Bush propagandists changed the meaning to protect their own butts from prosecution.

You once again show that you have no clue how our government works. (I’ll never understand why conservatives are so unembarrassed and proud of their ignorance. ) When a party is in minority, as the Republicans are now (and if our country is to survive hopefully will be for decades to come, if not forever), and as the Democrats were then, they have no power to stop the majority from doing anything.

Pelosi and the others may not have objected — and if they did not object to this evil by Bush and Republicans, they should be held accounable — but she had no more power to stop them than Boehner has the power to stop Obama or the Speaker from doing anything the Democratic majority backs him on today.There was no vote. It was a top secret plan, and the minority (Dems) were merely informed by the Bush cabal, who did not seek, nor did they want, the Dems’ approval.

This was a product of degenerate Republicans, including George Bush and the black-hearted officials who worked for him. They desired to executed at dawn but we are a merciful country so life in solitary confinement will have to do.

By Rudi G. on 04/27/2009 2:44 pm
Rudi G.
Typo: They deserve to be executed at dawn, but … life in solitary will have to do.
By Rudi G. on 04/27/2009 2:48 pm
Irish Eyes NY
Well, I can see you and alot of the liberals want their revenge. It is time to get past this thing, and get on with whatever it is BO is trying to do.  We are in a financial crisis and we are still at war (didn’t someone promise to end the war as soon as he was elected?), I digress .   Now is not the time to put our country at risk.
By Irish Eyes NY on 04/28/2009 7:33 pm
Mimi Jones

I personally know families that lost loved ones in OKC.  Do NOT even try to include McVeigh in a "right-wing" political group.  He had mental problems that went untreated or unaccepted.  You should go read "Harvest of Rage" to understand what was going on with McVeigh.  The next attack could come from a left-wing "weather" group? Stop the right-wing acccusations.

By Mimi Jones on 05/05/2009 12:41 pm
deber B

The country needs to move on and concentrate on the economy….no question about it as far as I’m concerned.  

I’m with Cheney that since "security" has been broken to allow a few memos to be released….then let’s play ball and release all of them to show, and they will, that the interrogation practices produced good results.  

Perhaps that will create "too much transparency."

By deber B on 04/27/2009 12:43 pm
Lady Gator

The country needs to ‘move on’ and Nancy needs to move out!  IMO she is in this up to her bulging brown eyes.  Let’s produce the minutes of the meeting where she and other prominent Democrats voiced their opinion.  This wasn’t just a one party affair.  So if the ACLU wants to start a witchhunt —let’s make this affair — "fair and balanced".  Let’s just make it one big mudslinging, slip sloshing event.  We’ve already put every serviceman and woman in danger.  We’ve already put the country in danger.  We’ve already revealed to the terrorists our stupidity.  So bring it on.  Let’s go after poor old Roosevelt for incarcerating innocent Japanese American Citizens  - then bring in Harry Truman for dropping two big berthas that ended the war but killed millions of Japanese.  How about Johnson - the Vietnam War wasn’t a walk in the park.  How about Clinton!  Surely we can find something to hit on him!  (several come to mind).  And, of course, Nixon and Watergate and god knows what else!

Yeah, let’s just keep stirring the pot of hate.  We are a divided country as it is - this will only further the angst!  George Soros must be so proud of himself.

By Lady Gator on 04/27/2009 1:08 pm
deber B
Poor Pelosi….and she so wanted to the the "Queen" of the United States.    Mr. Straight and Narrow President might be looking for a way to get the queen off her throne.
By deber B on 04/27/2009 3:27 pm
Rudi G.

Deber, I thought you said you lived in the DC area. Surely you know that the Executive and Legislative branches are coequal. Presidents can’t dethrone house speakers. Civics 101.

The last speaker who was dethroned was Newt Gingrich after word got out that while Gingrich was leading the impeachment of Pres. Clinton over Clinton’s sex lie in a deposition in a civil lawsuit, Gingrich was having an ongoing extramarital affair with one of his staffers. 

But Clinton was powerless to go after Gingrich. It was ousted in a coup by his own party in the House. You may also recall that he was briefly to be replaced by  Bob Livingston, until it was revealed that Livingstone was a sex maniac who had repeatedly engaged in extramarital kinky sex orgies.

So the fantasy that Obama can oust Pelosi is just that: a fantasy. She can be investigated by the House Ethics Committee or a special investigative committee, or she can be voted out by her district in 2010, but since her district is basically the city limits of San Francisco, that’s not very likely.

By Rudi G. on 04/27/2009 4:15 pm
deber B

Rudi, because I like you for some reason and I want to get real with you for a very few minutes….

Your description of government authorities as rooted in the constitution is simplistic.   There is constant tension among the executive legislative and judicial branches when each body is exercising it’s constitutional responsbilities for checks and balances.   The key here is that Obama is head of the democratic party.   He can exert political influence to dethrone Pelosi.   The difference between this instance and the Gingrich case is that both the president and the speaker of the house are from the same party.   I believe that Pelosi will retain her power as Speaker so long as she effectively executes the democratic party’s legislative agenda which undoubtably is being driven by Obama.   Every day we read about Obama’s soaring approval ratings but Congress’s ratings remain in the tank.   This gives Obama tremendous political leverage.   Pelosi wasn’t elected Speaker of the House.   She is the congresswoman from California.   Her hold on power as Speaker is dependent on congressional support and approval.   She can exercise power only with the backing of her party.

A better parallel than Gingrich is Denny Hastert, who was ineffective as a Speaker.    Your comparison was bogus.

By deber B on 04/27/2009 6:29 pm
Rudi G.

Thanks, Deber, for wanting to get real, and I’m not being ironic or sarcastic. I’m a geek for political history and strategy so here’s the way I see it.

The mistake you are making is that you are applying Republican psychodynamics to Democrats. Republicans are hierarchical, bow to their leaders and jostle and squabble with each other to move up the line of pecking order.

Democratic infighting is a messy, illogical free for all — like amoebas battling it out. Whoever forms the coalition with the most votes, most influence, most star appeal or wins the last argument — or whatever factors are in the atmosphere that day — wins.

Will Rogers had it exactly right: "I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat."

Bill Clinton summed it up perfectly: "Republicans fall in line. Democrats fall in love."

I understand why you mistakenly believe Obama could oust Speaker Pelosi. You’re probably remembering how Karl Rove had Sen. Majority Leader Trent Lott replaced after Lott opined at Strom Thurmond’s 100th birthday that the country would be better if segregation hadn’t ended. But it wasn’t the remark itself — Rove wouldn’t object to a racist remark because racism is useful because it energizes the party’s base — it was because Trent Lott did not obey orders from the White House. Karl preferred Bill Frist, who he knew he could control. As leader, Frist was a lapdog to the Bush White House.

The Bush White House role in forcing Hastert out is more oblique. The rumor from inside the GOP congressional leadership staff was that Hastert, the former wrestling coach, let the Foley scandal get out of hand because he was, well, sympathetic with Foley’s plight. I have no idea and really could not care less if those rumors were true or just political spin coming from staffers for House Republican leaders hoping to replace Hastert.

But you will not find a similar instance in Democratic Party history where the Dem White House successfully exerted control over who served in the Dem congressional leadership. I don’t say that because we’re "better" than Gops. It’s a difference in the way we think — the way we work on an organizational level. If a Dem White House tried to meddle in Dem Congressional leadership appointments, all hell would break out, and the president — no matter how popular he was — would lose that battle.

Remember "triangulation?" That was Clinton pitting the Dem leadership in Congress against the GOP. Sometimes he would side with the GOP (example: welfare reform) against his own party. But Clinton had zero influence on who served in the Congressional Dem leadership. He was lucky that the Dems knew the GOP investigations into the Clintons were nothing but craven political games — an egregious abuse of power by Gingrich, Dan Burton, Henry Hyde and the rest — because if there was a sense among the Dems that Clinton had actually done something wrong, they would have voted guilty on the impeachment charges in a heartbeat.

Going back into the history of the Dems, you may or may not recall that even when Carter’s approval was in the 60s, he had nothing but problems for Congress, including particularly the new speaker, Tip O’Neill. A senator, Ted Kennedy, ran against Carter in the 1980 campaign, and thus weakened him and paved the way for the horrendous debacle of the Reagan/Bush, Bush/Quayle and Bush/Cheney years. Most people have forgotten that Carter led Reagan in the polls well into October in that cycle, and it’s arguably likely he could have won had he not been wounded by Kennedy. If Carter had won, we’d have been energy independent of Mideast oil by 2000 and so wouldn’t have invaded Iraq in 1992 or 2003, just for starters.

Going back even farther — remember how the GOP was, as Gingrich put it, "in the wilderness for 40 years" before 1994? (Because around 1954, the public sent the GOP into the wilderness in disgust with Republican Sen. McCarthy’s communist witch hunts.) Well, during the 40 years of (mostly) Democratic one-party rule in Congress, during the presidencies of Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan and Bush, the Congressional Dems fought the presidents tooth and nail, no matter what party they were in.

So back to today — you’re wrong, of course, that "Pelosi wasn’t elected Speaker of the House." Please, please, please tell me you know that’s not true. Pelosi was elected by the House, with all the Dems voting for her and all the Gops voting for Boehner. (And her home district is basically the city limits of San Francisco, so she is safe for a 13th term in 2010.)

Congressional approval ratings are always low. Since 1990, Congress has only been above 50 percent one time. But since the inauguration, congressional approval has risen 20 points, to 39. Approval of Democrats in Congress is around 45 pecent, while approval of Republicans is 30 percent. (As I’ve noted, the message of "No, no, no. Hate, hate, hate" simply is not working.)

 As long as Pelosi holds her power base among the Dems, starting with Steny Hoyer and on down, there is nothing — NOTHING — Obama can do to get rid of her. She will oppose him on key issues, as will powerful Dems in the Senate like Feinstein. But there is nothing he can do about changing the Dem congressional leadership.

Your side likes to say Pres. Carter was "weak" and the perceived wisdom was that he got that reputation because of foreign affairs. That’s not really the whole story. Carter had bad relations with the Dems who controlled Congress and was opposed and steamrolled by Speaker Tip O’Neill and Sen. Majority Leader Robert Byrd.

That’s the most likely way Obama could fail — if Pelosi and Reid turn on him. That’s where your side should pin its hopes. The difference is, Carter never served in Congress and had no ties. Obama recognized that. Not only did he, his vice president and secretary of state serve as senators, he also brought in Rahm Emmanuel from the House to be his chief of staff, a.k.a. the assistant president.

One reason you and I are having this conversation is because over the 15 years the Republicans have been in power, we have been studying your side very, very carefully, while at the same time, your leaders have used their propaganda apparatus, Fox and hate radio, to paint us as one-dimensional cartoon characters. We hear your side describe us as the Fox News cariacatures every day, and it sends the signal loud and clear: it’s not just teabagging that the right is clueless about.

This also illustrates that you are leaderless. Karl Rove based his political skullduggery, in part, on ancient techniques described in Sun Tzu’s "The Art of War." One of those principles is this:

Know your enemy.

If you ever figure out who you’re really up against, the tide against you will change. If and when you ever take the time to really understand who you’re up against, you’ll see why the bottom line answer to your question about Obama and Pelosi should have been clear from the start: History proves that if Obama gets into political fight with Pelosi, as long as Pelosi holds her base in the House, he can never win.

He knows this, and so does she.

By Rudi G. on 04/28/2009 10:45 am
deber B

Rudi, excellent post.    I don’t agree with everything you said, however, you said it well.    Bravo! 

I think the future of the Republican party lies in getting back to the roots of conservatism. A smaller government, more fiscally responsible spending and personal liberty. I also think that if the Republican party can separate from the "religious right" and realize that moral issues are not just christian issues, but that most people have SOME kind of moral code regardless of what religion they practice, that will open up the party to include many people that currrently feel they are not wanted in the Republican party.

I don’t know if ‘12 is the year, but I think Republicans can get back in the game.  At this stage no one knows who our choices will be in 2012 but what IS known is that our party needs change. Again, I enjoyed your thoughts and facts.   It was one heck of an interesting read.

 

By deber B on 04/28/2009 11:23 am
Rudi G.

Thanks, Deber, for the generous words and the thoughtful reply.

I think you are right that in order to reverse current trends, the GOP is going to have figure out what to do with the evangelicals. Problem is, they represent a big percentage of the base (30 percent? 40?)  and will be hard to replace with an even larger group.

The other problem is that so many evangelicals have, gently put, un-Christian feelings toward minorities. Outreach to gays and blacks would not be a good mix. The best bet is Latinos. Culturally, many of them have social values that jive with the GOP’s (purported) family values, but the anti-immigrant wing of the GOP base has scared and/or p**sed them off so bad that I wonder if that fence can ever be mended. I’d put the chances of Latinos moving to the GOP in California anytime soon at about 0.0000005 in the next 40 years. The anti-Latino imagery and tone in the ads for Prop 187 destroyed the California GOP.

As noted, I’m a history geek. What I see here is the makings of a new party — but seriously this time, like when the Whigs ran out of steam and credibility in the 1850s. Several new parties were formed, but as we know only one survived, the liberal Republican Party. 

The momentum is in the middle today, so it seems more likely that a new moderate party would come together. The trick is that it needs to start in Congress instead of at the presidential level. The movements that fail tend to be the ones that are focused on a single personality, a la Perot.

I’m just not sure the Republican brand can be fixed. What do you think? Repair/rebuild or clean slate?

By Rudi G. on 04/28/2009 2:02 pm