Well, isn’t this comforting. All this time, I thought I was the only one!

Could never understand the wives who blamed the “other woman” when their husband an affair. Like he had no free will in the matter. It takes two, baby, me and you. (Rod Stewart , Marvin Gaye?)

It’s the old Madonna/ Whore thing that never seems to go away. In France and Italy it seems to be perfectly respectable for men to have mistresses––remember at Mitterand’s funeral, his mistress stood a long side his wife. These men marry women who make good “wives”––have their children, are good mothers to the children and to the men, keep a good house and do a lot of cooking. Sex is in another compartment and these kinds of men have a different kind of woman for that. And these different kinds of women are as plentiful as buds on trees and they want what men want and our Dr. Mark Klein would say that they are the cause of the downfall of the family and of men. So we dance around and dance around and one day perhaps we’ll realize what Ms Heyn realized decades ago. I haven’t known too many women who aren’t a composite of the Madonna/ Whore––it all depends on how one handles that, and if one is lucky enough to find a partner that can embrace both and satisfy both. I also think that many women of a certain age find so many other things that precede sex in regards to their fulfillment ; when you’re young it’s the whole meal, later becomes a tasty side dish.

You have hit “my subject”, Selma, and I still have your 1992 book. Little has ever then or since been written about the formation of relationships outside of marriage. . and why … and yet I have written a book-full on this subject, adding to it with more and more knowledge as the years have gone by. My interest is solely in long-term relationships - 20 to 30 years - outside of marriage. Forget one-night stands, flings, meets in bars — I wanted to get into another phenonena: staying in the original marriages and yet have another very long-term love. We are older, and most of us grew up in a time where we were pretty innocent, married young and said “love, honor, and OBEY (do they still do that last word??)” with conviction. Face it, our hormones were ruling us, and whatever we thought that whatever was happening in bed was what it was supposed to be. There weren’t too many with lots of past experience. And then the world changed. Babies arrived, and there just wasn’t time to be hot numbers any more. It was still the age when many husbands (not all, as I am covering my tracks here) thought that housekeeping and children were a “wife’s work”. We were tired at night, and marriage suffered. . and much of that fire just never returned once we were back in the nest alone. And NOW — the world for women had changed, and the smarter of us wanted part of it. We got onto boards of directors (in my case anyhow) and political life, and found we were some of the “first women” to do so. There were men that could talk our language, have something of interest to say. We may have begun a good job - same thing. What happened? Most (covering my bases) women were not looking for outside relationships. They were looking for someone to talk to who respected their hidden knowledge and gave it credence. And so we sometimes built a foundation with a man in our field that became deep over the years. It was friendship - period. But, in the meantime, we were hitting our 50s - you all know the years. A lightbulb goes on in our heads, a marquee keeps flashing as we look at the comparison between home and outside home. The marquee said: IS THIS ALL THAT IT IS? And two people who have been friends for 10 years become more than friends for the next 20? And most of you will understand, but for those who don’t: most of us came from families that far back that said that marriage was for life. That was a given. Second, by the time the side relationship begins, there are not only children but grandchildren. Do we want our children to have bad examples here or a mixed up marriage situation if we can help it? As you can see, my book is about done. But to cut this short, I have watched a number of 20 to 30 year relationships go on - into the 70s and longer - without affecting the marriages. I know. No one else knows. But in all cases, the marriages weren’t “bad” (that is another story) but the couple did not have common ground any more in their interests, and their sex lives were less than “a dream”. But - and I watch this closely - at home and away — and the marriages are OK, mainly because the small joys of the liaisons on and off have rubbed off enough that the contentment at home has increased. Smiles are there, kindnesses carry over to “real life”. What has happened is that this private life - that may not happen all that often (which actually makes it more exciting) - is the frosting on the cake. The husband or wife at home — and I will say I see this first hand — is what you would expect in a couple in their later years. Nice - with smiles. Remember — I am only talking about long long term relationships and not anything else. Frankly, from what they tell me, much of it is comprised of being able to have “that one” that you can talk to. Women have outlets — men do not. And they have - down deep - the same needs when they are over 50 (notice I am confining it to that as before 50 - well, we know what their needs are comprised of) - and the woman becomes the confidante. The other follows . . YOu all know I have pretty much of a dream marriage - so don’t think this is me. But I am telling you that two level marriages can go on and have something beautiful happening also. How many of us can say we are perfectly “fulfilled” in every way every day in our marriages? Raise your hands — as this is not what I hear. You may pick and criticize all you want. I have found that I do not judge others — as we each must live our own lives - which are often hard enough with no nitpicking from outside. I am saying that relationships fascinate me, and I write about them. The people I know feel safe with me in telling me what they do — more men than women, but that is because women tell women. Men usually keep mum. So thanks to this author whose book started me on this route long ago — and how about leaving well enough alone. In none of these relationships, as I know all involved, is anyone hurt — but I have seen the marriages seem better. Can a person love two people at one time? Yes, I see it happen. There are different kinds of friends we have. There are different kinds of love, but it is love.

What to me is troubling about these long term relationships you are talking about Joan, is that they are secret, and consequently betray the trust of the other partner. How can you go on for years living essentially a lie? Granted, people do, but who are they really protecting? Brief encounters, short affairs are different and as you said that is not what you are talking about. I think of the very fine film, Bridges of Madison County, (*poorly written book, though) where Streep’s character desperately wanted and needed to feel the way she did with Kincaid, but she chose to stay because she knew her family would be broken if she left. Now let’s tweak this story and say that it would have been possible for her to have a long term relationship––instead of a photographer, Kincaid was the shoe salesman in town–––could she have done this? I doubt it–––Streep’s character was too connected to an inner morality or strength to ever succumb to that. You mention that in these kinds of relationships that you know of no one who gets hurt; they don’t, because they are being deceived. You then ask can a person love two people at once? Of course, we can maybe love four or five people at once, but when one of those people think they are in a relationship in which their partner is loyal and is being lied to–––––well, then––––. When friendships beget fucking then terrible troubles arise whether in River City or Madison County.

I was glad to see Dalma Heyn featured on this site. She has a great clarity and compassion and injects sanity into discussions about relationships. What I would like to know, on the subject of infidelity, is how women’s views change as they age. More specifically, behavior that might be tolerated at one stage in life may not be later on. As a younger woman I occasionally dated married men, something I would never do again and which strikes me as stupid behavior, not because of any moral prescription, but instead not wanting to participate in a betrayal that can only harvest hurt. Recently, I was in a situation where the wife of a man whom I found attractive seemed upset at my having a conversation with him about a book. I had no intention of acting on my attraction, which appeared to be reciprocated. I wanted to tell her: “If I don’t want my own husband, then most certainly I don’t want someone else’s.” I didn’t. I just behaved.

Joan - What you described really resonates. I know some cannot relate to this but I understand exactly what you are talking about.