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Dear Margo | 03/12/2009 11:00 pm

Dear Margo: No One Would Call This 'Romantic'

Her boyfriend has a ‘list’ of the things he wants to see in her before popping the question … Margo Howard’s bright advice
Margo Howard

No One Would Call This "Romantic"

DEAR MARGO: I have been dating this guy for a year now, living with him for nine months, and there have been discussions about marriage. I see a grand future for us, as he has a stable job, my parents and friends love him, and he is supportive of whatever I want to do for my own future. The problem is that one day, while discussing our future, he mentioned that he had a mental list of the things he wants to see in me before popping the question. He asked me if I wanted to know what was on the list, but I said, "No, thank you." My reasoning was that in my haste to get a ring I might subconsciously do or become all the things he wants, temporarily. I am who I am. My guess would be that the things on the list aren’t major personality changes — more akin to picking up a little more around the apartment. But now I find myself constantly thinking about the stupid list. I just wish he would never have mentioned it. How do I forget about this and get on with my wonderful life with him? —- CURIOUS CAT
DEAR CUR: "Curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back." I find it kind of strange, and not all that flattering, that Henry Higgins would have "a list." He has put himself in the position of being, well, the decider, and I fail to see the romance in that. I think you should ask what’s on "the list," but frame it as a discussion, saying you’d like to find out what’s important to him. (Most couples find ways of revealing these things without there being a list.) One saving grace is that your guy at least offered to share this information with you, and I would not worry about play-acting as the girl of his dreams. As you said, you are who you are. —- MARGO, STRAIGHTFORWARDLY

When the Neighbors Hear It All

DEAR MARGO: I’ve read numerous advice columns over the years dealing with people overhearing neighbors who are noisy lovers. Well, I’m one of those noisy lovers and I don’t know what to do. I live in a duplex with what I thought were relatively thick walls, but apparently they’re not as thick as I thought! (Got a nice note from my neighbor, but I was still mortified.) I have a boyfriend with whom I have a phenomenal sex life, and unfortunately, we both are quite vocal during our lovemaking. I really don’t know what to do about keeping the noise level down. Moving is not an option. Suggestions? —- PRINCESS

DEAR PRIN: Soundproof tiles on the common walls? Short of wearing muzzles, that’s about all I can think of — and I’m not even sure there is such a thing for humans. Just thinking about this problem and mentioning muzzles, however, makes it a certainty that the next time I see a muzzled dog I will laugh. Good luck. —- MARGO, REMEDIALLY

Dear Margo is written by Margo Howard, Ann Landers’ daughter. All letters must be sent via e-mail to dearmargo@creators.com. Due to a high volume of e-mail, not all letters will be answered. To read more about Margo Howard, click here.

COPYRIGHT 2009 MARGO HOWARD
DISTRIBUTED BY CREATORS SYNDICATE, INC.

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65 Reader Comments (so far…) Sign In or Register to comment

Carrie Shel

OMG #1 If he hasnt seen what he wants by now then he is just leading her on.  I say she should move on to someone who wants her for her and not some "ideal woman"

#2 Try loud music to drown out you out.

By Carrie Shel on 03/13/2009 4:41 pm
Rita@ Goldivas
I don’t think loud music is the answer, see Ronipooh’s comment.
By Rita@ Goldivas on 03/13/2009 6:02 pm
Beth S
For #1 — Dude was trying to communicate his feelings on an important issue and got shut down. You’ll never know if it was irritating/controlling or something sweet with a too-clever-for-his-own-good way of broaching it unless you go back and ask. If it’s an irritating/controlling list, at least you’ll know. If it wasn’t, then it will now be off your mind and not bothering you and may even strengthen your feeling for him. It may not have been the kind of list you think it was. Knowledge is power; use it to strengthen your future (whether with him or without him). But letting it prey on your mind because you’re trying to guess or imagine what he’s thinking is going to weaken you and your relationship.
By Beth S on 03/13/2009 10:14 pm
Michele S
Beth, I agree 100%. Many men are different kinds of thinkers than we are. I am married to a computer programmer/engineer. He makes list of things that to me seem really strange, but that is his way or organizing his thoughts. I find that I have to talk to him with an open mind and understand that he doesn’t mean to offend me. If I tell him I was hurt or offended by something he said, we talk it out and find I misunderstood, or he mis-spoke. We did move in together after dating for several months with the understanding that if we did not decide to marry within a year, he would move out. That was HIS suggestion. We were engaged after about 10 months and have been married for almost 19 years.
By Michele S on 03/14/2009 9:08 am
Tough Year

For the noisy couple (or anyone with noisy neighbors!), I have lived in a lot of apartments with thin walls over the years and I decorate with the noise levels in mind. Sparsely furnished rooms echo. Rooms with a lot of soft furnishings and books do not. Fabric and books muffle sound, so I have floor-to-ceiling bookcases full of real books (not just knicknacks) that I put against the neighbor’s wall. It makes a HUGE difference.

For those rooms like my bedroom where there isn’t enough space for a bookcase, I have been known to put up a curtain rod with heavy floor-to-ceiling drapes behind my headboard. Thick lined velvet works real well. I also add in thick rugs, especially where the annoying neighbors are below me.  The more sound & echos that you muffle inside your apartment, the less the neighbors will hear or be heard.

Hope this helps!

By Tough Year on 03/14/2009 2:53 am
barbara gentry

living in an thin walled apartment building in l.a. for several years was an eye opening experience. in the spring and fall windows are often left open at night to let the cool breeze in.

one night, a few apartments down from me , an older woman who looked like the perverbial librarian  was yelling " give it to me baby- give it to me-" —- a male voice was heard yelling from another apartment —" come on down to # 118 and i’ll give it to you baby.

on another ocassion, a man’s voice kept yelling " who’s your daddy, who’s your daddy." finally some man yelled —" go ahead and tell the s.o.b. who your  daddy is so the rest of us can get some sleep.

needless to say, on both ocassions, there was loud laughter from all the apartments up and down the hallway.

By barbara gentry on 03/14/2009 11:40 am
Wafaa El  Jusmani
Does this mentality actually still exist. O.k switch it around and what about her list, just to be as silly and indicate that this type of psychology is demeaning , not to mention that no matter where we go, what we reach, not to mention the achievements women accomplish, it somehow rediculously boils down to "his popping the question!" Are we women allowing for this mentality to be present, or is it a way for (SOME)men to ascertain their machoism? As I write this I realized that my psychology is " could I please cease to exist this very moment if tis is the only type of mentality available, pretty please, very obeddient please, in every anguage and every dictionary on the planet?" Just a hint!
By Wafaa El Jusmani on 03/14/2009 1:59 pm
Steve Douglass
I haven’t taken the time to read all the responses. But, I find it interesting how many women are acting like this guy is out of line for doing exactly the same thing women do when they consider someone for marriage. Women need to realize that many men have caught onto women’s games of control and manipulation. Women have assumed for many years that they are the only ones able to expect anything in a relationship and that men become their personal ‘stuff provider’. They have acted like sex is all they have to bring to the marriage table. That men will do whatever a woman wants, as long as she controls the sex. Alot of men have woken up to this and have started choosing to stay away from marriage. Oh, that’s what you ladies have been calling ‘committment issues’ for the past few years. We men call it ‘saving our own butts from your nagging and lawyers’. Sounds like this guy needs to walk away from her just for questioning him like this. She’s going to be trouble later down the line.
By Steve Douglass on 03/15/2009 4:36 am
Lisa Carter

My, My, My!  While I agree with your principle concept that there are and should be expectations on both sides of a relationship, your response suggests that you are either seriously jaded or just plain grumpy!  I will leave the analysis of your response to the others who post, but I am curious…. If you are one of those men who have "woken up…and [have chosen] to stay away from marriage", could you be suffering the ill effects of some of the benefits of marriage & could that be the source of your grumpiness?   In other words…do we need to "hook you up" with the "noisy" sex kitten to improve your mood?  ;-)    

Just playing with ya, lighten up! 

By Lisa Carter on 03/16/2009 3:49 pm
Tinka Parker
My husband, in the course of our marriage got me to correct a few annoying habits. What bothers me is that this guy makes it a condition for a marriage proposal. I say Curious Cat should just wait and see if, over time, there appear more red flags in this guy’s behavior. I mean, she really hasn’t been dating him long enough to know if they will be good for marriage. She’s in too much of a rush.
By Tinka Parker on 03/15/2009 11:22 am
linda leblanc

 

We are treating our adult children to a four day vacation in Las Vegas in July. My daughter-in-law is putting a damper on the trip, at least for me. She told me that she will not go outside unless its by cab as she does not like the heat; she has told my daughter that she would go out with her once only as she wants to have a quiet last evening there; don’t even think of asking her to go to the pool; when we discussed where to eat for dinners she suggested the food courts in the mall so there is no big deal where she eats.  I know all of this sounds petty but her attitude is bothering me and I don’t want it to spoil my trip. BTW..she is a really super person and I adored her but for some reason she is not so adorable right now. Thoughts please.

By linda leblanc on 03/16/2009 9:36 am
Helen O'Reilly

Since losing my husband four years ago, I haven’t found a man who "trips my trigger" the way he did, although I’ve been out with a few. None has even been remotely "spongeworthy." So a friend suggested a time-tested exercise; make a list of the qualities I DO want in a man — but then the challenge is to EMBODY those qualities myself, on the theory that like calls to like. Well, that’s about the only reason I can see for such a list. This guy sounds like a jackass. Strike him off YOUR list, pronto.

By Helen O'Reilly on 03/16/2009 1:56 pm
Kat intheSouth

I disagree with the poster who said that the gal has "lost her bargaining chip."  Many couples nowadays choose to live together before marrying.  And some couples don’t find marriage a necessity at all.  Relationships are not games, or they shouldn’t be.  I think everyone has a mental list of attributes we want to see in our lifelong mate….although not everyone is as …open as to state : BEfore we get married, I need to see this particular trait in you."  Perhaps he lacks the ability to express himself well, but I think they should sit down, discuss what they BOTH want for the future, and she should express how the "list" comment made her feel, and give him a chance to clarify himself. 

On first glance, it does come across as rather bullish (Is he a Taurus?) but, perhaps he’s just clunky with words?  If he’s that great, it’s worth an open conversation before rushing to judgement.

By Kat intheSouth on 03/18/2009 7:52 am
L. C.
Why are you still with this little boy posting as a man? Are you so desparate to be married? Have you no dignity ,self esteem or self respect? Who died and named this fool God? What an absolute jerk! He’s an abuser. Abusers are never satisfied! Nothing you do will ever satisfy him. He will make your life miserable. You’ll end up a basket case. Don’t walk away ….run!
By L. C. on 03/18/2009 11:25 am
MARY WENZEL

To Listmaker’s girlfriend:  whoo, this is a toughie and I don’t envy you.  We’ve all got ‘mental lists’ of qualities we hope to find in a future mate, but it takes real balls to enumerate the list to a marital candidate and expect compliance to each tick box as a condition of marriage.  Look, we’ve all got areas that need improvement, and it’s nice if we want to improve weak areas to make ourselves better partners, but—they call it ‘self-improvement’ for a reason.  The drive to modify yourself has to come from within if it’s to be genuine.  If it is imposed on us by others that is a recipe for resentment.  By not asking for his ‘list’, you’re kind of in a quandary—you now now that there are things about you that bother him but no specifics, leading to a generalized anxiety about what you might be doing that is so offensive.

I don’t know your boyfriend or you to say whether he’s got legitimate grievances, but I do know that if one partner acquiesces to the other’s demands without getting an equal exchange in return, the balance of your relationship is off.  This is at bottom, an attempt to mold your relationship on ‘his’ terms and therefore dominate you over some perceived ‘flaws’.  It might be very civil and well-intentioned now … but just remember that there will be no end to this ‘list’ of his.  If you meet one condition, he will only replace it with another.  He sounds like a perfectionist …or else he’s trying to mold you into a version of his sainted mama that he can have sex with; in either scenario you are pretty much guaranteed to fail to meet his expectations.

If the man I loved brought his ‘list’ of my flaws to my attention, it would knock the wind out of me.  And probably make me question whether I could continue.  Because the fact that he’s keeping a ‘list’, even though you two are discussing marriage, is not the same kind of harmless ‘list’ a guy might have in his head when he scopes out available women in a bar.  You are no longer a fantasy girlfriend—you are flesh and blood reality, and you two have at least broached marriage.  Which I would say was enough time for him to have learned to love you in all your flawed glory.  Embracing a loved one’s flaws is the very definition of love.  So by this definition, your boyfriend doesn’t really love you enough to marry you if he’s into imposing conditions under which you will be acceptable and worthy of his love.

He’s done you a favor by letting you know that he’s got some dissatisfactions with you prior to any ceremony taking place.  This, though hurtful, is positive—all couples need to have this kind of deep discussion of mutual flaws prior to any wedding, in order to see if they are truly lifetime partnership material.  More couples need to confront their messiness before the wedding; few do and that’s why we have so many divorces.  So  . . as painful as it’s going to be to be dissected, you need to do this.  I think you should hear this ‘list’ of his.  Better still, ask that he write it all down, just so that you are very clear about what he wants from you.  Then compile your own list of areas in which you require him to improve. (I’m tongue in cheek here but also dead serious.)  Inform him that you will also have a list ready for his consideration.  In this list, you may as well swing for the fences—don’t hold back.  List every category requried for Ideal Husband.  Clear an afternoon, brew some coffee, sit down and swap those puppies.  This should engender a lively discussion.  Hopefully by this point, if not before he will get a clue about how ridiculous and hurtful his ‘request’ was.  Throughout, try to keep a good humor.  After all, you’re fabulous and he’s lucky to have you, flaws and all, right?

This exercise has a serious purpose: to determine how much work you both have to do to make this relationship strong enough to continue.  Because I don’t think you’re there yet.  Love is about trust and mutual respect and valuing each other.  He is focusing on your flaws and not the strengths you bring.  I’m a lousy housekeeper, so if anyone points that out—well, they can’t hurt me with something I already know about myself.  But—you might be surprised or even shocked by some items on his ‘list’ and discover that you can’t accomodate his wishes (or should have to.)  I think this would be an excellent way to introduce the subject of couples’ pre-marital counseling.  I think you need to have a few sessions with a neutral observer and take a compatibility test and talk more—a lot more—about your boyfriend’s ‘objections’ to you.

This is not about being rigidly resistant to changing yourself—but I dislike the very paternalistic and condesending way he chose to tell you about the ‘list’.  A man in love would not do this; a man who is trying to engineer a girlfriend to spec would, though.  You’ve gotta ask yourself: do you want to be your own creation—or his?  It’s up to you.  You are not obligated to change yourself one iota to suit him better, as long as you also prepare for the possibility that it would be the deal-breaker.

If it is, it wasn’t much of a deal to begin with, on your end, at least.  Then you’d be free to find a man who appreciates you as you are, not as he thinks you should be.  I will close by saying that Abigail Adams received a ‘list of her faults’ and how she could endeavor to rectify them from her fiance John.  The Adamses stayed married until death parted them 54 years later.  Only you know if you have a John Adams on your hands or just some guy from whom you will always be falling short.  Good luck.

By MARY WENZEL on 03/20/2009 11:17 am