Conversation | 07/01/2009 11:00 pm

The wOw Conversation: Why Do People Put Up With Abuse?

Margo Howard joins Joni Evans, Mary Wells and Joan Juliet Buck to dissect the mystery of abuse and the psychology of the abused.

With Joan Juliet Buck, Joni Evans, Margo Howard and Mary Wells

JONI: Margo, you recently noticed this little comeuppance that you were so gracious to put on the Web. You had made a casual remark to a woman who had once been abused –

MARGO: Yes.

JONI: – and had started up with another abuser, and you wrote something along the lines of, “How could you do this twice?”

MARGO: I said, “What a slow learner.”

MARY: What did she do? What did she say?

MARGO: I got the most marvelous letter, and I’m still in touch with that woman. She was very well spoken, well educated, had come from a fine home, i.e., a privileged home, and she wound up in the shelter system in New York, getting away from an abusive husband. At first she said, “I was highly offended by that slow learner business.” She said, “Let me educate you.” She said, “What you live through is what you know, and if you’re abused as a kid you will go on to be an abuser. And then she told me her situation – how, because there was no other option, she was absolutely thrown back into the arms of her abusive husband, from whom she finally fled. And there was a question about her daughter, because she said the system in New York was broken, and she couldn’t get any help. Nobody was coming through. And I misunderstood something. I thought she was afraid for her daughter. I said, “Let me get you a lawyer in New York.” And she wrote back and said, “No, I’m done with the court system. That’s not the problem.” But we kept going and I thought I should say something, because I’m reasonably savvy dealing with people’s problems and also being 114 years old. The fact that I did not understand, really, the crux of the abuse situation embarrassed me, and I thought, “Look, if I don’t know, there are other people who don’t really get it.” And I owe this to the people who read me for information to go further with this. And I hope that wOw makes it their cause somehow.

There’s a lot of anger in depression, and there’s a lot of mistreatment of people, and there’s also a lot of disinterest in people who are helping.

MARY: I read somewhere recently that close to 70 percent of the women and about 50 percent of the men in the United States have had some sort of child abuse. Not necessarily physical, but the kind of abuse that you carry around with you like a backpack all your life.

MARGO: “You’re not good. You’re worthless.” I had a letter about that. A father was verbally abusing a little boy, grinding him down into nothing, and I told the mother she just had to get out.

MARY: I think there’s a lot more awareness of it now than there used to be, just as there’s greater awareness of clinical depression, and depression in general.

MARGO: Yes, Mary’s right. The figures are astounding. I read some of the same things and I couldn’t tell you exactly where, but the numbers are enormous.

MARY: One of the big issues in this article was why people don’t leave when they start with people they can see are going to have a very long road ahead with depression. There’s a lot of anger in depression, and there’s a lot of mistreatment of people, and there’s also a lot of disinterest in people who are helping. To know you’re going to have that all your life is frightening. And then there are all the people who are physically abused, and the big issue is: Why don’t they leave?

123 Reader Comments (so far…) Sign In or Register to comment

I’m not sure whether the discussion is about spousal abuse or about condescension from monied people.

Firstly, thanks for bringing up a subject that needs to be talked about regularly so that women can learn from it and know that it’s not a subject to be thrown under the carpet.

Bullying however is not machismo. It is insecurity. It’s picking on someone in order to derive some sense of power [which the bully rarely feels]. How does this fit in with Dr. Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs? I believe the fourth level relates to the need for self-confidence and respect from others; if one cannot achieve those objectives, one loses confidence, feels insecure, and acts out [bullies] against those who are vulnerable.

Physical or emotional abuse is bullying in the worst way. Those who abuse typically are lacking in friendship and a sense of belonging. This is generally the setting of their family of origin. How “better” to achieve a sension of belonging and confidence than to beat up someone smaller. Abusers are world-class manipulators [e.g., “I’ll never do it again”].

As far as why the abused doesn’t leave? It’s learned behavior in most cases; kids learn from their parents. This is her frame of reference. She thinks it’s normal. When she is exposed to homes of family where there is no apparent abuse, it’s a total revelation. Then she begins to see things differently and is more apt to make plans for escaping.

By Andrea Brandon on 07/02/2009 2:00 am

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Andrea… It’s not a learned behavior per se…Children who live through abuse…believe its their fault and that they have done something wrong and thus deserve the abuse. Leaving is no more an option than standing up to the abusive parent. Living in a state of fear leaches out all other ability to truly seek escape. It is also not a revelation that others are not also abused. Don’t mistake accomodating abuse with ignorance. These kids know it doesn’t happen in other homes, that’s why they try to keep it hidden and often don’t/won’t tell. It becomes the family’s dirty secret. Your simpilistic observations are off the mark. Most kids are caught in the terror of the abuse and feel the abuser is all powerful. Most do not get out of this cycle of abuse unless they find support outside the home, or on occasion find the will when a younger sibling becomes the target of that same abuse. This is a very complicated issues and simple understanding that it doesn’t happen to everyone is not the key to escape. It finding enough self esteem to believe you don’t deserve the treatment.

By Victoria J on 07/03/2009 12:01 pm

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Victoria J,

My comments were in the context of an adult having learned the behavior in his childhood home [and not as a child trying to escape]. While they are children they either learn from their parents to be submissive or to be aggressors [whichever serves their personal safety better]. At some point it IS a revelation that abuse does not happen in other homes. They may not be able to act on it then, but at some point [perhaps only after they’ve made 20 trips to the ER and have had the MSW talks options to them] will they begin to think of leaving. Some never leave, it’s true. But some do, only to return. And then there are some who break the cycle and leave.

Don’t assume that all of us who have not experienced abuse can not possibly understand.

By Andrea Brandon on 07/03/2009 12:55 pm

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In some ways, Andrea, that is correct, without professional training and that must be extensive to work with anyone who is or has been abused. Group support, and "counselors (CADAC, lay, et al)" are just that - support, and that is vital, but at the right time, and we have yet to create a supportive milieu for the "right time." Yes, you are correct, "all of us who have not experienced abuse can not possibly understand" - it’s a highly complex condition, in fact.

Abuse is a condition, and it’s far more extensive that most people can imagine. Were it as simplistic as I’m reading here, we’d be able to help millions of sufferers, many who have no idea that they are suffering, or that help is possible - until, "it" comes out, and it will.

Children do not always "learn from their parents to be submissive or to be aggressors… " And, taking that into the realm of one’s personal safety, is again simplistic.

There is no other trauma as invasive and pervasive as abuse, served against anyone; however, that dealt by a parent, or parents - or adult (children look up to adults for protection) "fractures" the psyche over and over again in an unrelenting inner war that affects the brain, hence the mind.

Interestingly, severely abused children do not always "learn" from their parents; some reject the adult-model early in life out of some incredible instinct in a few children that signals their parents are unlike others, and/or wrong. That being said, patterns of behaviour, especially to please others (to avoid confrontations/future trauma, etc) abound and increase in order to transport the psyche into adulthood, quite unawares.

We must insist on high level psychotherapy for victims of abuse - and we must enable people to choose whether they bring a child into the world, or not … the "outside" (of abuse) world, is abusive.

By C jay on 07/07/2009 11:45 pm

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C Jay,

I’ve never felt basic group support was sufficient by itself for those abused or even for addicts. I do think they can be good adjuncts. In all cases, after medical treatment, psychotherapy is essential.

YOu misunderstood me though. I did not say "all of us who have not experienced abuse can not possibly understand" - it is entirely possible for a trained psychotherapist with extensive work with abused patients to understand.

Also, please reread the first paragraph in the post your responded to. My entire statement was directed to those who LEARN abusive behavior in the home as a child. That is not to say that it is a learned behavior for ALL abused people.

By Andrea Brandon on 07/08/2009 12:02 am

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I should like to add that while peer support groups can be helpful, my experience is that most have little positive effect without psychotherapy by a licensed professionals [Psychiatrist, Psychologist, Marriage and Family Therapist, and Social Workers who have counseling background].

On too many occasions I have heard [albeit second-hand] that peer support groups tend to diminish the need for higher level counseling. This in itself sabotages the possibility of recovery.

By Andrea Brandon on 07/08/2009 12:07 am

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Well taken, Andrea … just as an FYI, in the 70s there were some interesting studies about groups, namely such that functioned as LeLeche League International’s, in that properly "structured" such groups over time (long period ~3 years) brought to light developmental biases that, "with appropriate support" may bring forth change and progress.

In my early maternal years, beginning in Cambridge, I was a "Leaguer" and later a leader - IMHO, I believe such a highly supportive, and successful activity was what you may recognize as a "pre-select group." Indeed, determining that selection per se may be left to the finest statisticians (grrrrr - I’m not a fan of quantitative analysis), as necessary as they are. ;-))

One program I began, and led to many court appointments of parents (to "re-parent" them) - that was the only program identified at the timethat stopped abuse towards others (primarily those most vulnerable and/or dependant). Please bear in mind that this, like pregnacy programs I developed, was either state-wide, local, and/or regional therefore, numbers were not an issue (in cases of women questioning a pregnancy the national number are enormous, compared to local #s as you know).

As "hands on" as the programs were, to this day, they appear to have been the most successful if you will, in helping others. At some point, in this work, one has to determine, albeit a board of an NGO in fact, the focus of intervention, the adult abusers or the victims. Frankly, the twain best not be dealt with concurrently. We opted for teaching victims how to reach out, identify reality, and understand the (then) Healthy Family Concept. I’d still bet on it.

Hugs for the day.

By C jay on 07/08/2009 8:55 am

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Hi, C jay,

There’s the qualifier in your statement: “in that properly "structured" such groups over time (long period ~3 years) brought to light developmental biases that, "with appropriate support" may bring forth change and progress.”

I have huge admiration for groups whose facilitators are licensed professionals who are properly trained and who impart the benefit of their experience to others, facilitating positive change. Rape Crisis Intervention is another such group that provides excellent support [at least in my area]. I sat through a multi-day training session some years back in order to observe and was impressed with the caliber of training and supervision given to lay people [many of whom were rape survivors themselves]. After written exams the candidates for these volunteer positions were interviewed by a City Task Team comprised of first responders [police, paramedics, ER nurses and more experienced volunteers]. This level of professional involvement and ongoing supervision almost always ensures success.

I am very wary of are the CAC-type and church-facilitated group sessions for alcoholism and addiction. They are rarely supervised by professional counselors. [I define "professional" as someone with at least a master’s level degree, who has passed State licensing boards, and who has been practicing for several years.] Twelve-step programs can do a lot of good, but too many leaders of the group tend to send the message that no other type of counseling is necessary, that no one understands except a group of peers. Some profess to be “licensed” [although there is no such CAC licensing in California] and that they have undergone significant training. I can’t comment on their actual training. The reality is that problems related to alcoholism, drug abuse, anger management, and enabling behavior require the services of a trained counseling professional with at least an MA/MSW in the field. Just talking about the problem is not enough. You have to get to the root of the problem.

Hugs back at you, C jay.

By Andrea Brandon on 07/08/2009 11:54 am

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agree on both counts… and with my "qualifier"

By C jay on 07/08/2009 12:00 pm

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I think that the myth that bullies are somehow "insecure" or "cowards" is slowly being eroded. I recently read a study done with middle-school kids that interviewed the bullies in depth. These were NOT insecure, unhappy kids. In fact, they were, to a one, happy kids who just liked pushing people around. They didn’t feel guilty, they didn’t concern themselves with the feelings of others, and they didn’t care what anyone thought of it. This was just their idea of fun.

It’s a pretty myth that bullies can somehow be cured. It makes those of us who WERE bullied feel better to believe that the people who abused us were somehow unhappy. They aren’t, though. The kids that were studied rated pretty high on the happiness scale and virtually none of them were subject to any abuse at home.

Now if only I could remember who did the study….

By Messy ONE on 07/07/2009 10:36 am

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Messy ONE,

[Why on earth have you chosen that name? I’m sure there’s a story worth telling.]

I’d be very interested in reading the paper if you can locate it. I can tell you that in all the papers I’ve read, none defines a bully as you described.

I think part of the disparity comes into play simply with the term bully. Some define it as mildly aggressive behavior. These are not the kids I’m talking about; I’m talking about the ones who bully mercilessly. There are kids who are aggressive, kids who taunt, and there are kids who bully.

This article may be the one you’re thinking of.

http://www.education.com/reference/article/bullying-victim-children-school/

By Andrea Brandon on 07/07/2009 1:37 pm

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Ooh, I KNEW someone would ask about the name. It’s from what is now known as the Great Gardening Incident. When we were living in Texas, I had had several very large flower beds prepared by a landscaping company and was doing the planting myself. At the same time, one of the local evangelist churches had been knocking on our door regularly and I, forewarned, had been ignoring them. They didn’t know what I looked like. So.

On a hot day, I was outside planting shrubs in one of the beds in not-fully-cooked turkey-do compost. I was sweaty, filthy and covered in somewhat stinky compost. On top of this, I had been mulching as I went along, so my sticky self was also peppered with a fine dusting of cedar fragments. As I was walking to the front of the house to put the debris out for the trash the next day, one of the church ladies was coming up the walk. She asked me if the lady of the house was in. I said no (remember hot, tired, hungry and cranky). She looked me up and down and said, "My what a messy job you have!", and left.

Months later, she saw me at a community do, nicely cleaned up and a neighbor introduced us. She looked mortified, and in a brilliant example of the mouth running ahead of the brain, I said, "You can call me Messy."

I will NEVER live that down.

Thanks for the article. You’re right that bullying (in adults and kids) comes in a lot of different flavors, all intolerable as far as I’m concerned. I remember from my teaching days a couple of kids that can only be described as sociopaths. They were vicious to other, had no conscience and were just so "off" that it was hard to even talk to them. You could tell there was something wrong there, and that it wasn’t something that was going to change. I’ve run into a couple of adults like that, too. Something about some people just makes you want to leave, somehow. We’ve all felt it, it’s just hard to describe.

By Messy ONE on 07/07/2009 3:04 pm

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Messy, you gave me my laugh for today. You described it so perfectly, I could envision the entire scenario. And the part where you said, "Just call me Messy," made me howl. PERFECT response. I admire the wit. [And here I was thinking your tabby was the messy one.]Yes, I agree, abuse in any form is terrible. I think the article goes offtrack with the following sentence, “As with generally aggressive children, bullies are not insecure and low in self-esteem, nor are they higher in anxiety level.” This is not true of all bullies at all. They generalized where they should not have. Hurling insults is a form of bullying, although I tend to think of it as a very benign form of aggressive behavior. I think those kids who yell out insults randomly without focus on a specific person are kids who s=more often than not are performing for the benefit of their peers. These kids generally have no problem with esteem. It’s when a kid consistently torments one specific person again and again with the objective being personal satisfaction [in order to reverse, albeit temporarily, a negative self-image]. THAT is bullying. To restateL "bullying" involves a person whose basic insecurities are threatened and who momentatily feels some semblance of power by consistently abusing the same person. I’m not a teacher but it seems to me that the best help you can give a young child is the feeling of empowerment one gets from karate-type classes.

By Andrea Brandon on 07/07/2009 5:06 pm

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i agree with you messy one (i’m a messy one also. but i think a clean desk is a sign of a sick mind). i was bullied all thru school from day one in kindergarten to the day i dropped out. all the bullies i knew were popular, happy and in the "in" crowd. they had money and lived nice. it was usually us kids that had no daddy’s at home, were from the poor side of the tracks, or our parents weren’t in the in crowd, etc. mine was the fact that my mother dressed me like a quaker/amish when everybody else was normal. also i was a scaredy cat and wasn’t allowed to fight (not that that bothered me any, i hated physical fighting). but even when i might have been considered normal, kids still found something to pick on me about, i was too skinny, dumb, ugly, etc. i hated school and was home sick a lot. my parents were older and didn’t know what to do about it.

but it sure taught me how to make sure my own kids weren’t bullied. some little smart assed brat comes after my kid i go to the school principal and ask to meet the parents. if i cannot get the parents to put the kids in check (usually that works, b/c they never knew THEIR perfect child would ever do something like that, yeah right). so suddenly the kid is no longer picking on your kid, but everybody elses. if that doesn’t work, a police report works just fine. it wouldn’t have worked when i was growing up. but it sure works now and i love schools that have zero tolerance for bullies.

By Nancy Pea on 08/21/2009 2:13 am