Elaine and Ms Aminuddin, my understanding of the muslim culture as it is distinguished from the Quran agrees with F. Fox’s interpretation. I do not know the writings of the Quran well enough to talk intelligently about them but I do know that in middle eastern countries, (where the culture is primarily muslim), women are treated as second class citizens at best. From Afghanistan with its burkas and beatings, to Saudi Arabia where the woman is held responsible for adultery and beheaded even if it is rape. Women in those countries who fight too hard for respect end up dead. No holy book of any stripe SHOULD justify this behavior, but patriarchal societies everywhere have twisted “the word of God” to justify their behavior ever since there was a word to twist. I believe this is why the founders insisted on a separation of church and state for America

Marjorie, the muslim mindset is totally different from our own, women are lesser creatures, kind of like pets we can get rid of when they make us angry. It is disgraceful and i do hope that he is meted out the full measure of American justice. Like Scott Peterson. As I said on another thread England is in deep difficulties because of their willingness to adapt their legal system to the desires of emigrees. There are discussions of making Sharia law part of the english judicial canon. We need to stay alert and make sure the same thing doesn’t happen here. It is bad enough how much money we are pouring into services for illegal aliens, if we permit religious practices to affect our legal system we are doomed.

I am curious if you are labeling me “the radical liberal left”? If you are she and the others I classify as liberal leaning will hoot at you as out of touch. As I have said many times, I am an independent thinker, I offend narrow minded bigots on both sides.

For what it’s worth, I believe that Bush was lied to as we were lied to. I do not believe that his intention was war profiteering (although I am willing to admit I may be naive). I believe that Cheney (for the United States of Halliburton) and Rumsfeld(The Islands of Ignorance is Bliss) sold him a bill of goods that this would be like the Allies retaking Paris. He was not brightest bulb in the box, his demeanor on “Mission Accomplished” day and after bespoke that. While you honor the people who served and truly behaved heroically, you (as a former draft dodging frat boy) do not stride out there in a uniform, before God and everyone; with your hubris showing to announce that YOUR mission has been accomplished unless you are announcing the safe return of all troops to the states. Once again arrogant, ignorant white men decided the fates of millions without having any insight into the mindset or values of the people whose country they were invading. All they saw was vast oil fields under American control, and infrastructure contracts for their friends that were going to be a “cakewalk”. My husband used those words to a friend he convinced to come do a tour in Iraq. I don’t believe he ever got over his guilt for his friend being burned by a white phosphorus round detonation. The problem with many, many American is that because of their limited experience in other countries, and their inability to speak or understand more than their own language, they assume everyone thinks the way they do. My husband and I lived in Germany for 12 years as military dependents and during that time I taught myself German, French, Dutch and a smattering of Russian and that was when i learned that different cultures spring from different mindsets. The neocons who pushed for this didn’t have the foggiest idea of the Middle Eastern Male mindset. They assumed that “freedom” was everyone’s first principle. they were so, so wrong.

Given that this all began under false pretenses the success stories are admirable. But one must go back to the initial premise that this was started with lies. Iraq was responsible for 9/11, there were WMD… and so forth. The fact that 19 attackers were Saudis and no WMDs are talked about having been found, and the graft and theft and fraud committed by various members of the contracting community and upper military power structure. The uptick in army suicides, wounded and disabled who are being treated poorly, forgive me the list just goes on, alas no, the republicans were not right.

Amen Z*****. We are lonely if that is what we choose. This is an amazing world of great adventures if we look for them. There is a runestone that is about how to be in an important relationship and part of its meaning is however close you become do not collapse yourself into the relationship always let the winds of heaven dance between you. Finding that stone was a learning moment for me.

I have been a widow for two years, it has been a learning process as challenging as it has been profound. I had been so socialized to believe that I needed a man to complete me (?), define me (?), validate me (?) that when the man I loved asked me to give up 25 years of working toward my passion for him, it seemed obvious that the only answer was yes. I would never do it again. My life is once again mine, I am responsible for my own happiness, my choices are based on what I KNOW is best for me and my children, not the soothing and protecting of an ego that is wrapped around itself. Two years ago at Christmas instead of trying to fake a traditional Christmas in the wake of my husband’s death I took my kids to surfing school in Costa Rica. We had fun, we learned how to ride a wave, we learned some lessons about each other that we would never have learned without taking these risks. I followed my gut about what was best for us and was right. I will let men into my life in the future but they will never again have the power I was taught to give them by my mother and the world. Andy Rooney once did a piece “In Praise of Older Women”. It says it all.

I am glad that there has been some honest discussion about the tone of posts here. Perhaps I have been reading the wrong threads but it has seemed to me that the “liberal” voices were very unpleasant to those of us who take a more right leaning perspective. It is wrong to assume that everyone who enjoys your choices of content is going to agree with your politics. I have been on the fence about staying here because, the truth is the nasty posts reflect a lack of thought, a kind of name calling that is more fitting to a middle school playground than a site for thoughtful women to exchange ideas. I don’t need to mention names, frankly others have brought up the ones who offend the most, and to be honest you know who you are. But your political views deserve a stronger defense than you give them. You reflect the ignorant wing of the left when you defend your side by denigrating the right or independent thinkers among us, and although YOU may find your posts witty, most of the rest of us do not.

For those who wish to see it themselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ9Y5CHRPlM

A friend of mine sent it to me. YOu can find it on youtube. I find it scary, and am not quite sure what to think. Is it the canary in the coal mine or racism run amuck? British friends who have come here say that they will not go back to England because muslims are taking over the country and trying to take over the legal system as well. One friend said that many Brits are retiring to Scotland because muslim emigrees can’t take that cold. It seems to me that if you move somewhere you should adapt to their ways not demand that they adapt to yours. But that is what is happening here as well.

Starry, I know this is a depression and something has to de done. And that tax cuts are not the whole answer, the mall in my area has had 5 stores and 3 food court stands close in the last 6 weeks. Houses are for sale everywhere. And this is “upper, liberal” Massachusetts. What I object to is the sneakiness. I am tired of the dishonesty and forgive me, it appears that Mr. Obama is operating from the same old playbook. Bury it in an omnibus bill and hope no one notices. Doctors here do that as well, not taking insurance is becoming the vogue, but fees are lower because they eliminate a full layer of bureaucracy. I don’t know what the healthcare answer is but I know that it needs to be talked about, out in the open, with doctors and nurses involved in the discussion, that’s why I thought Howard Dean was a good choice for HHS, because this needs to be done and someone has to be knowledgable to lead the discussion. But if we, the citizens don’t get together to demand integrity from our officials, NOTHING will change because they are all about themselves and “how much for me?” What’s my cut? And we can’t even begin to pull together if everyone is name calling and not really listening to everybody’s view. In the end to make “change we can believe in” all of these pols are going to have to go and we the people are going to have to set limits to political service by active involvement. It may actually be too late for that because they are draining the treasury at an alarming clip and when we are broke all the current government guys will get out because there is nothing left to steal.

Sherrie, one of my deepest concerns is the misuse of information that occurred in the last 8 years, it disturbs me deeply that there is no action being taken against the perpetrators of that behavior. But I haven’t heard the Dems leaping to dismantle the Patriot Act. It would have seemed to me (as a reasonably intelligent INDEPENDENT thinker) that it should have been a top priority. But I am waiting for the day when (now that they are the power party), Mr. Obama explains to us why it must be maintained for the good of the country. As I listen to the sniping on this site every time politics comes up I am very surprised. From my observation, it is the politicians who are the bad guys, on both sides of the aisle. Aren’t we all fundamentally honorable people wanting what’s best for our country, making judgements based on our respective value systems. But it keeps turning out that we are being lied to, both sides have done it. That’s why Bush/Cheney aren’t being prosecuted for betraying their trust. Do you really believe every one of these people appointed to cabinet posts “accidentally” forgot to pay thousands of dollars in taxes? That’s naive at best. So the knotheads who sucked this country’s life’s blood for the last 8 years are being let off the hook,so that the ones who run it for the next 8 years won’t be held criminally responsible for their misuse of the federal treasury to enrich their favorite special interests. And we are the ones who will end up broke. This set up for government to dictate treatment based on cost effectiveness and other factors it decides are appropriate is criminal. And the fact that citizens aren’t raising hell about it is crazy, we will be consigned to nursing home warehouses to await our euthanasia because it is most cost effective for whatever our illness turns out to be, now that we are to old to be useful. Diana thank you for all of the info, I find it gets harder and harder to get real facts these days. I appreciate your time. Roger, my parents are dead and when they were alive they had private health insurance and a single copy of their medical records which was paper and traveled with them. I wish the liberal side of this forum wouldn’t judge all of us as the same just because we may agree with elements of republican thinking. we are not all the same. And if you listen to what we say you would know that to most of us Rush Limbaugh, while a startling and entertaining showman in the very distant past, has rendered himself irrelevant. the only people who haven’t figured this out are Democrats and Rush himself.

Thanks SJ for printing the whole thing. The sneakiness of it all is a disgrace. This is socializing healthcare by stealth. I think the biggest problem w/ healthcare right now is government’s initial intervention. When gov’t money enters, integrity leaves.

And she wonders why no one takes her seriously. She has done some good work over the years but every time she stops being the “center of the universe” she does something vulgar and trashy to get the camera pointed back at her. Am I the only person who finds her appearance kind of weird looking? I find it more than “not aging gracefully” I think she is starting to look kind of strange.

We have got to start getting involved in what the government is trying to do. There is some genuinely scary stuff being put in that bill because the mainstream media is not telling us the whole story… check this out ladies: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_mccaughe… What the hell is this kind of mandatory health legislation doing in a bill that is purported to be about stimulating the economy. This kind of government snooping needs to be out in the open. Debated and discussed, but how can it be if we don’t even know it’s in there? All of a sudden the government has access to our health records because they “must be” electronic AND HOSPITALS THAT DON’T USE GOVERNMENT PROCESSES TO DETERMINE TREATMENT FACE CENSURE AND PUNISHMENT. WHAT THE HELL IS THAT ALL ABOUT? And why is it buried in a stimulus bill who’s supposed purpose is to stave off economic catastrophe.