Deniseann, I’m very sorry to hear that. That is a terrible story, and disgusting that the NY officers wouldn’t do anything. I do understand where you’re coming from, and I’m glad that you were able to pull through and use your experience to help other people. I know from personal experience that you never forget, but you can use the pain you’ve felt to help other people get through — and avoid — what happened to you.

All the best,

Rachel

"but the poor girl that was raped has to carry a child 9 months then put it up for adoption, Get Real. "

Wendy, abortions in the case of endangerment to the Mom’s health, rape and incest are exceptions:

"The measure would prohibit the proposed new government-run insurance plan from covering abortions except in cases of rape, incest or to save a mother’s life, and bars any health plan receiving federal subsidies in a new insurance marketplace from offering abortion coverage."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091112/ap_on_re_us/us_heath_overhaul_aborti…

Nothing I’ve read indicates that this is true. What I’ve read is in line with the following:

"The measure would prohibit the proposed new government-run insurance plan from covering abortions except in cases of rape, incest or to save a mother’s life, and bars any health plan receiving federal subsidies in a new insurance marketplace from offering abortion coverage. If women wanted to purchase abortion coverage through such plans, they’d have to buy it separately, as a so-called rider on their policy."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091112/ap_on_re_us/us_heath_overhaul_aborti…

In other words, you can pay for your own abortion, but other people’s tax dollars aren’t paying for it.

Pam, as my sister always tell me when I get upset by something, "Chill!" ;-) j/k, just no need to get upset. :-)

Seriously, your post brings up a lot of common — but incorrect — beliefs about the pro-life stance. For starters, there are very, very, very few people who would choose the baby’s life over the mother’s (I’ve met one, and he is a sanctimonious [insert choice word here] about everything, not just this topic). The majority of moderate pro-lifers are *not* talking about cases of rape, incest or peril to mother’s health when we discuss abortion. We’re talking about cases involving two consenting, reckless adults who don’t want to take responsibility for not protecting themselves, but would prefer to take the easy way out — at the expense of the child’s life. 

Now, to address your questions:

Have you ever actually talked to someone who has had an abortion? Yes. More than one lady.

Have you ever just sat there in the abortion office (gently) asking women why they are having the abortion? No. I would rather not risk harassing people, particularly at a time like that. 

What about the woman who have to chose between themselves and the unborn baby? As I said earlier, that is not what pro-lifers mean when we talk about "abortion". We’re talking about medically unnecessary abortions of convenience.

"This is one of those issues where people think that by not providing the information/services will cause less people to do it."

Not me. I don’t say that parents shouldn’t teach their kids their moral values, but they should also give them the knowledge to protect themselves. 

"( you idiots are probably the same ones who think "She Asked For It" when a woman gets raped. )"

I’m not sure if you’re meaning a specific subset of pro-lifers or pro-lifers in general…but this where my ‘chill’ comment came from. ;-) I think if we understood the concerns of the moderates on both sides, we’d realize that both sides have a lot more in common than either are inclined to think.

lol, I see. I’ve heard that used as an argument though by some religious people against abortion and contraceptives, so I just wanted to make a clear distinction between pro-life and anti-contraceptives, lol.

As for people not caring about child abuse, sadly, you are correct. To be perfectly frank, I — as a moderate pro-lifer — am often saddened…alright, disgusted :P …by some of the pro-life movement. Why? Because too many don’t give a dang about people in general, including live kids, but chose this as their "cause" because it makes them feel special. Plus, it gives them a(nother) reason, in their minds, to judge people. This, I think (as per my experience), is especially true of the really religious ones (which is not to say that all religious pro-lifers are like this, but that the majority of those who I’ve met who are like this are also religious). I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard that people who have had an abortion are going to hell (really? Who made you god?), etc., etc. Sometimes it’s men who say this, and sometimes women. There’s even a pair of whackos where I live who regularly write letters to the paper reiterating the same points (if you have an abortion, you’re going to hell! You women out there, you listening? If you’ve had an abortion, you’re going to hell to burn for all eternity, blablablabla); they always create a firestorm of comments, which is, I think, why my paper chooses to print them, but still…even if they are in the minority, it’s saddening to see such judgemental rabidness. Then there’s the freaks who delight in ill fortune falling on Moms who have had abortions. And the ones who think that, if a girl finds herself pregnant and unmarried, well, she’d better not abort that kid, but, at the same time, she is trash undeserving of their assistance — she and the kid. These people are extremists and are in the minority… but there’s enough of them, and they still do so much harm (extremists on both sides) to any rational discussion. * Sigh * But I digress. :P

 My point, before I got sidetracked by complaining ;-), was that I agree that not enough attention is given to child abuse, particularly by some pro-lifers. But it is not true that we all do not care.

"Isn’t a vasectomy done to prevent a child from ever being conceived? Think of the lives that are being denied by this act."

Sorry, Lizzie, but that’s something else entirely. Preventing a life from being conceived and ending a life are totally different. The problem with abortion (for the purposes of our conversation, when I say ‘abortion’, I mean as an alternative to birth control…not in cases of the Mom’s health, rape, incest, etc.) is that people are choosing, for whatever reason (convenience, changing their mind about having a kid, etc.), to kill a human being after he/she has been conceived. Protecting against making that baby in the first place is the best solution — then no one is faced with the choice of taking responsibility for their actions (not protecting), or killing their child.

I realize that there are arguments from some religious groups along these lines against contraceptives. Without stepping on toes, though, let me just say that those are not mainstream pro-life ideas, and, IMHO, make absolutely no sense.

"C J, I agree with most of what you’ve said. But I know for a fact that some people have been on welfare for over twenty years until NY state finally put a cap on how long you could be on it. "

Agreed, Deniseann. I have an uncle who started taking drugs (he ended up sticking with pot, but experimented with many others during his youth) in his teens. He swiped some of my grandfather’s prescription meds, od’ed, and was rushed to the hospital. No residual side effects, but rumors that he’d tried to commit suicide abounded. So he decided to sit around the house moping. When my grandparents tried to get him out to do stuff, he’d say that he was just going to kill himself like everyone believed. That was all it took…there is absolutely nothing wrong with this guy except being a spoiled brat, but he’s been on welfare for his entire life. He lived with my grandmother until she died, and since then the state has paid for his rent — and continued paying for everything else (including, indirectly, the substances he abuses).

I know there are people out there who need aid desperately. Sadly, it seems they’re the ones who get minimal aid, while the slobs (like the aforementioned uncle) continue to mooch off the system for all its worth.

Deniseann, I find it amazing that the other poster would tell you that refusing to kill your child was in fact putting his future at "risk". What future, when he’s dead? And to say that that was "selfish" — rather than selfless — just indicates, to me at least, how extreme some people can be in their beliefs.

Anyway, I’m very glad everything worked out for you. My best to you and your children! :-)

First of all, I don’t think you read her post at all. She was saying that it should be a woman’s choice to do whatever she wants to do. Apparently, you’re more in the camp of mandatory abortion that choice. But I digress.

BTW, do you actually read what you’ve written?

"You took a risk, which in my opinion was essentially selfish. YOU wanted to have a baby and the fact that you could have died before he was born or while he was tiny because you chose not to treat your disease is a selfish act. You risked your son’s future."

You say that she should have killed the baby, her son, so as not to "risk" his future. Really? So you’re saying that because, potentially, his Mom may have died, he should certainly have died to protect his "future"? So it’s better for a kid to die than to be raised by his dad? His grandparents?

Your post illustrates what I said earlier about the extremes. There are the extreme anti-abortion people, who think that no abortion is ever justified, regardless of the Mom’s health, etc., and there are the extreme pro-abortion people, who think that "choice" should be tossed out the window in favor of them mandating when a woman should be forced to have an abortion. 

I’d be willing to bet your fellow pro-choicers are cringing in embarrassment at these posts.

"That old cry of just " put them up for adoption" is insane on so many levels.  Not every baby is a blue eyed blond.  The adoption process in this country is expensive and is a ridiculously long process.  It’s easier to adopt a girl from China. "

I don’t know about that, Maggie. I work with someone whose family consists of him, his wife, and their 5 adopted kids, including one special needs son; they’ve fostered each of these kids, and then adopted them. They’re worked hard to maintain their family (and are doing a great job of it), but I got the impression that the actual adoption part was not as difficult as some of the fostering situations (due to belligerent birth parents and whatnot).

Anyhow, as to the rest of your message, I do agree re: education. I think parents need to understand the importance of having "that talk", and actually get around to doing it before the kid has found out on his/her own. They need to make kids feel comfortable enough to be able to discuss things with them, to ask their questions, and to get answers. Too many parents, I think, are under the impression that they can wait until the kid is 15/16/17. By then, he could be a father, or she could be pregnant, or he or she could have contracted a disease that will kill them or haunt them for the rest of their lives. Now, am I saying that parents shouldn’t impart their own moral sense to the kids? No, of course not. If someone believes that sex should wait until marriage, or until a comitted relationship, or whatever, sure, teach the kid that. But also teach the kid what happens "when that time comes", so that — whenever it does happen — they’re properly prepared.

As for "welfare children", I think that touches on a whole different issue, and a raw spot with me. IMHO opinion, this is perhaps the single most neglected issue by politicians of both parties…the fact that we have entire communities growing up without hope of a normal life or a future. Sure, we have people of both parties paying lip service to it, and granting money for this program or that, but that’s not enough. In fact, granting a little bit of money here and there to sustain basic survival is just putting off the inevitable: America has a problem that we will have to address, sooner or later. The longer we wait, the worse the problem gets. As long as we have kids being born into a culture of violence, hopelessness and despair, we will continue to have "welfare kids", "ghetto" problems, etc. We need to vigorously address these issues…we need good schools, good police, good adult figures for these kids to look up to, good prospects for them to look toward, etc. We need to clean up the crime, drugs, prostitution, etc. in these areas, and we need to actually invest time and money in these people’s futures, as we’ve done for the rest of us. It’s a blot on this nation that we have "ghettos" at all. 

"And while adoption is an excellent possibility for a healthy, Causcasian baby,"

Lym, I do not know the statistics on this…but I do know several families who have adopted kids, and (again, this is just my limited experience) it was about a 50/40/10 divide between Caucasian, African-American and Asian-American kids. Do you have actual statistics on this (I don’t, and would be interested to see them)?

You presume alot, Sally, to suggest that "none of you [conservatives] has ever known someone on state assistance". The stereotype that conservatives are all upper middle class people and liberals are all lower middle class or poor only goes to show just how silly stereotypes are. My family has struggled to establish itself for two generations as an immigrant family here in the US, with my Mom, aunts and uncles working as soon as they could legally do so. Years of hard work and work related injuries, illness and stress has necessitated dependence on state aid for some of my family; the rest of the family does what they can for them, but, if not for government assistance, some of my relatives wouldn’t be able to pay the rent due to medical bills and prescription costs alone. 

At the same time, I have a middle-aged uncle (from my father’s side of the family) who has chosen not to work in order to spend his time taking drugs and drinking himself into a stupor (he’s done this since late teen years). He gets more aid (living in the same state) than those of my relatives with actual disabilities and real need — his rent is paid for, he’s able to buy his pot and liquor, and buy what he needs. To say the system is messed up is an understatement. 

But please don’t presume that you know the experiences of us "really sadly ignorant" conservatives. You don’t.