Dawn,I’m amazed by your story. You showed great courage and daring, and I salute you. I understand what it’s like having no emotional support while giving birth and rearing children, and I won’t even speak of my past, but you will certainly undnerstand what is missing. I’m sure that your children love you dearly, because they now understand how you managed. 

 As I mentioned to someone else  on this website, who really didn’t understand, most of my friends were single mothers, some abandoned, and some who decided to end the marriage with small children like yours. I had more in common with them than women who had attentive, loving husbands who catered to their needs, and I was conscious of that, which always meant that I would give a helping hand to these friends when they needed help, a meal, or to leave child with me. My home was open to others, and it kept me involved and able to survive.  Whatever we did, Dawn, we know it took great strength, lots of lost sleep, and wisdom to survive, and survive we did. And, who says that females are the weaker sex? 

Thank you, Dawn. (Note the signature change)

Though I didn’t want to reveal too many details about my family to protect them, I have mentioned that my parents were immigrants (1924 entry to the US) and in the US they had an arranged marriage, and they were first cousins, which didn’t mean they were ideally suited, but they had known each other throughout their lives, worked together after the Depression, and I learned much from them though I was not as rigid and religious as they were. I was Americanborn and very independent as a child and as a young woman, which probably brought discomfort to my parents, but my mother cherished her 2 grandchildren. Historically, most marriages in my family were arranged, and though mine was self-chosen and with someone of a different natonality, ethnic and religious background, we had few problems based on those differences. I was brought up to be pragmatic about family life life and stress, though, of course, as an American girl I looked forward to romance.  However, in the US, as well as in other places, differences are emphasized and analyzed ad finitum, but in our private life, we accommodated each other, though we had conflicts over other matters.

I suspect your grandparents would have understood my attitude and behavior better than most of the readers on this website, for we came from a different era, and commitment to family was primary. I have never used the word ""sacrifice" when describing my choices, and I believe that my children gained much from how we lived though I know that there was strife and sadness, at times. 

Because of my history and my choices, I tried to address the problem the young pregnant woman presented to Margo, and did encourge her to think ahead and plan after the birth of her 2nd child how she will proceed. I offered my history as an exammple of one choice, not the only choice, for I do not believe in making quick decisions when minor children are involved. 

With all that said, like you I made many mistakes throughout my life, and often I reconsider my decisions and past behavior, and wish I could amend or edit them, for I now live with the consequences of those decisions. Dawn, we are human so it is inevitable that we made mistakes, and perhaps we learned from them, and we harmed few. In any case, I do appreciate your your humane and generous response, and I thank you. 

Kelly, here I am again to thank you (after writing the posts which appear later) because I received an email alerting me to your reply. Indeed, I feel very fortunate that somehow, with energy, independence, a strong will, and love for my family, I managed to have a rich, full life. Actually, on Sunday my grown children, their spouses, and my 4 grandchildren are holding a celebration for my 80th birthday, and we have invited my friends, former students, and some who are my children’s ages who have remained friends with me for many years. I am grateful and feel cherished.

Though I was often angry while married, and who isn’t, I believe my husband and I maintained a stable home and taught our children fidelity and responsibility, and I am pleased with their own choices of life partners and how they conduct their lives.

 And you are right, I did what was best for myself, which might not be suitable for others, and I feel that was the best part of my life, though now I have the great pleasure of seeing my granchildren ( ages 22, 15, 9, & 5)) grow up with strong values and a talent for joy.

 I must share with you that as a family we laughed a lot, ad my favorite photo is  of my husband and me sitting in our living room laughing at and with each other though there were many conflicts. Those who did not know us may not be able to imagine the joy we had in our family life, and I feel sorry for those who were appalled that I did not run far away when life was stormy and disappointing. I had always assumed that there are obstacles and imperfections, and slowly managed to overcome what was painful—-and to accept that, on the whole, we remain who were were.

Again, thank you, Kelly. I’m just catching up with this site. I’ve been out all day. What I do like about this website is that it is a forum, mostly for and by women who share their experiences and views on many subjects. And I heartily agree with you that women should not be silenced.  Silence is not golden, in my book. 

It is true that my expectations were unrealistic and that there are many whose writings I have noted are bilious and accusatory, instead being open and supportive. I grew up in a much earlier period when women were very competitive, and I always fought it. So, I have spent my adult life reaching out to women of all ages and backgrounds to discuss alternatives to remaining meek and mild. And I prefer discourse to personal insults. So, I had hoped to find a large group of open minded women  who represent many parts of the US and the world to share our thoughts and views. I was not counting on consensus which can be deadening and leads to smugness.

However, the level of anger and outrage is very high; we are not here to criticize each other’s lifestyles and choices but to listen, learn, and encourage each other. Disagreement can be civil and informative. So, let’s hope that there will be more kindness and generosity. 

Thank you, Kelly.

I missed your response because there was so much to follow. The writer whose attack I answered did respond again, later, when  I wrote to another person who had mixed me up with another writer. I do not expect others to agree with me on  how I solved my personal issues in marriage, but I always hope there will be civility in responses, not personal attacks. If there is rage, then clarity is missing. I did suggest to the pregnant woman who wrote to Margo that if she waits until she has  her baby and  makes plans to be trained or educated to get a job to support herself and her 2 children, she will be prepared to end the marriage—-if she wishes. I would never tell  another women to end her marriage or to remain in it. I wrote about myself, because I recognized her dilemma, especially how that she is facing the birth of a 2nd child, which complicates matters.

However, my angry respondent, who I suspect has never  married and had childen or she may be very bitter about what did happen in her life, rages on and on, using very inflammatory language, to tell me what how I failed and that I envy others who

have flown the coop." She knows little about my life and overreaches in her conclusions, which is dangerous and insulting. It saddens me when someone writes so full of rage that she cannot empathize at all with another woman and just attacks. I never intended and never write to expect  others to follow my course, and frankly, personal attacks are pretty awful and irrational.

I appreciate your response, not because you praised me, but you "listened." 

Please don’t mediate when you haven’t read some of the responses I received. In one case, a writer, who appears to be an attack dog, told me I had wasted my life remaining 30 years in a marriage. She has ranted, very angrily, on other topics to declare how she could not tolerate anything less than perfection. I doubt whether she has ever been married, and if she has, she was very bitter, and especially angry at other women. Your attitude is "peace at any price," for, if I felt someone was hurtful, that is my view. If you read what I wrote, you would notice that at no time did I question anyone’s view when it was different from mine. Also, I always give 2 sides of a dilemma. I don’t only see one side. And, I NEVER tell anyone to live as I lived. 

As for your statement that my response was inappropriate for the young woman who wrote to Margo, isn’t it her decision whether I was useful? The verbal abuse she now experiences may be an indication of a man’s fear about additional responsibility though I won’t hazard a guess, because I don’t know this couple or many details about them. It is for her to decide what it is and what to do about it. Marriage is not a vacation with niceties uttered at all times. Are you afraid of frankness and conflict? Her description of how she feels pregnant for a 2nd time moved me and reminded me of my own experience, and I can empathize with her. Who are you to judge whether my words were appropriate or not? Somehow, your message reveals that you prefer meek, less critical women. I’m not one of them. I read carefully what I want to respond to, and I also examine replies to me.Your response was not helpful. Do you have anything constructive to give this young woman who faces a crisis? That is the subject.

 Since you and I did not write to each other earlier, why did you respond to me? Was it to correct me? My statement was a s to someone who had referred to me by name.  Again, focus on the topic at hand instead of "correcting" a writer. 

Just a minor correction; I never mentioned my ethnic or religious background, so you have mistaken me for someone else. I am not Polish or Catholic and neither was my husband. On another note, I responded with personal information to offer support and encouragement to the young woman, now pregnant with her 2nd child, who wrote to Margo. I did not accuse her husband and her of any failures or mention anything negative or accusatory about their character. I did mention choices she has once she has her baby, and if she decides to end the marriage, to prepare for its ending by becomng self-supporting, perhaps gaining training or an education to find a job; I also described the choices I made, for which some writers attacked me since they do not appreciate that marriage is negotiable, especially when the 2 people are responsible parents, and there was no physical abuse, only incompatibility in some areas..

To me, solving a marital dilemma is not an either/or procedure, especially when there are minor children involved. We do what we can to protect our children, and I hope that those children who experience their parents’ divorce have a advocate, an relative, a parent, even a sibling, to help cope in this trauma.

WOWOWOW offers us an open arena to express ourselves, perhaps to reveal something about ourselves, but I am often startled and shocked that so much anger is expressed, especially toward other women, because, on the whole, this appears to be a women’s forum. Empathy and kindness go a long way in fostering communication. My last paragraph is not directed at you Ronipooh Baer, but to others who have communicated with me without showing any sensitivity or generosity. 

On the whole, somehow those who communicated with me were so adamant in their views and conclusions about marriage that I wonder whether they understood what I wrote. I hesitate revealing too many details information, because I use my full name and do not hide behnd a pseudonym, and I must protect my family.

L.C. If I’m mistaken, tell me, but I assume you are addressing my 2 statements in which I revealed important information about myself in response to Margo’s #1 letter. Hyperbole is not appropriate when discussing human failings, family issues, and how men and women connect. For example, the words rape and  selling oneself are really poor choices. For me, sex is not part of a barter agreement.  Also, I helped support our home, so I was not "a kept woman," and I have always been self-supporting. I stayed in this marriage to provide a stable 2-parent home for my children who deserved it. You are projecting something awful, which is not appropriate to my experience. Please do not dismiss  what I wrote by stating that I cannot admit what happened. I am fully aware of what occurred, and one way of coping, somethng, obviously you don’t recognize, is facing unpleasantness and figuring out the different ways to respond. 

I did not waste my life. What an awful thing to say! Perhaps, you might feel that way, but I don’t, and it is not because I’m in denial. I cannot take the time or space to explain to you how emotionally rich and rewarding my life has been, because I sense in you such outrage that it prevents you to consider alternatives to the perpetually happy marriage you believe in.

 I had great affection for my husband for 30 years and to this day, as he had for me, but we weren’t in synch on some things. It’s not an either-or situaton if there are children in the marriage. The best of marriages have lots of bitterness and disappointment; otherwise we’d have to mate with our clones.

 You have simplified a complex situation; if it comforts you, continue to believe in those simple terms, but  for me, decisions, childrearing, responsibility, marriage, commitment have many layers. There is much satisfaction in living together in a respectful and affectionate manner, despite disparities. The illusion that marriage remains the same for many years is false.

Accusatory and dismissive language is demeaning to the reader; I hope you treat your friends with more respect and sensitivity. Your rage is a message, but it is not my responsibiity to probe.

 My initial response to problem #1 was to offer support and to suggest different  ways of coping with a difficult spouse; the decription of how this young woman feelst during her 2nd pregnancy rang a bell for me, for I have been in similar circumstances. I did not attack her husband or decide for myself why she has accepted his treatment. I revealed what was deeply personal  to assure her that she is not alone, and that she can plan for different outcomes, something very different from what you propose. 

Thank you for your response, Lynn. I understand what you wrote, and you wrote it from your perspective and experience. but, you do not know our family. My husband was a good, responsible  man, an immigrant coping with employment, discrimination, finances, adaptation, and much more, and were were both from stable, old fashioned families and upbringing though our marriage was different from our parents’ whose marriages were arranged. Our backgrounds, on the surface, seemed very different, but truly we were not. We had many good times, and my children remember much. I had always worked,  and my mother had always worked, so I was on my own from the age of 9. I promised myself that my children would not be on their own too many hours. A supportive community and family were not available for me, and I was ambitious about earning several college degrees which I did while married and when my children were in school. I had lots of personal freedom in this marriage, because my husband considered me very capable, which, of course, meant he didn’t have to handle the mundane details. He and I both contributed to the family income, and we played no games of infidelity, lying, cheating, or anything else. During summers, my children and I lived in Europe on a small budget, and in NY we had an interesting life in an international community where we belonged.

 I do not consider my decision a copout; to this day, I respect my husband who died 1989 and whom I  mourn, because we were each other’s family.The fact that we weren’t sexually or emotional compatible is one issue, not the whole. Our values about family, work, lifestyles, politics were similar, and my children gained much from having both of us as parents. I did not remain in this marriage by saying that I loved him and hoped he would change. The word love is not in my daily vocabulary; actions are. I stayed because I had much love for my children, and I wanted to give them that foundation  of stability , and their father was part of that stability. It may be difficult  to understand my view, because it is not mainstream American and based on Old World values.

That my marriage was not what I had hoped is part of it, but I come from an immigrant background, my parents’ were first cousins in an arranged   marriage, and the emphasis was on remaining responsible in a family. Romance may have been missing, but there was a solid, committed, and stable  bond between my parents, as well as for my husband and me. I hold those values though I would not judge or condemn anyone who disagrees with me and decides to end a marriage earlier than I did.

To this day, we honor my husband and remember very good things about him, as well as that our life was not perfect or the American movie. And, I do not begrudge my children’s memories and I do not complain about what I did not have. Their father & I  set an example of a stable, complex and life enhancing family life, and that life is not all happy and fun, but more complicated. One finds fleeting happiness in different ways, and I have had much joy in mine. And, there is something I must add, though it sounds arrogant. I have a great capacity for  loving and nurturing myself as well as others, and do not need reciprocal love, so when it appears, I am happy and grateful, but when  it is limited, I can cope. We all have different capacities to endure, and mine served me well.

 I did and still have friends who were single mothers, and in many cases, the children survived intact, while others didn’t and avoid emotional commitment. Who am I to judge? As I’ve written many times, I do not encourage others to do as I did, and I do not conclude that I know what went on in another home. For me, it was not a copout, because I had a full and rich emotional life, and I did what I consider the best that I could. 

Good luck on counseling and/or therapy! I urged my husband to join me many times to face our problems with help, and when he did, nothing changed, for he was charming, indifferent, and very cool while my hysteria and emotional outbursts added fuel to the fire. On several occasions, a therapist recommended therapy for my husband, but, of course, he resisted. I gave up. And when the children were grown and on their own, I was fully employed and self-supporting, so I gave my husband a deadline to enter therapy, and if there was no change (and there had never been physical abuse), we were separating and divorcing. The game continued, and our marriage ended because I kept my word, and most important for me, was that my children were not living with us to witness the ugly ending of our marriage, and they were old enough to understand why. 

I do not consider myself a victim of another’s whims and treatment; I made my decision to remain in the marriage for many years, and I lived with it. But, throughout this arduous life, I developed my resilience, friendships, interests, independence, and certainty that I could support myself without alimony or any financial help. I write this not to persuade other women to follow my path, but to think seriously about this important decision and to prepare for it. Whatever I did, I was responsible for, and the most important lesson was that I accepted the fact  that I could not change another person, only myself. 

Problem A  is familiar to me, and I do not agree with most of what was written in response to it. Fears about a man’s sexuality and stating he may be gay or a philanderer are Americans’ delusions. And, this marriage may survive despite the lack of sex or any emotional interest on the part of the husband toward his wife. Outsiders can always claim they know best and that this marriage will damage the children; most famiies’ histories influence and damage children, but children are resilient and survive to find their own partners and to start their own families.

As for the pregnant woman’s depression, perhaps, but I think she now knows the true condition of her marriage, and facing having another child and shouldering so much responsibiity without suppport, love, or interest may be so daunting that she sees no joy or even pleasure at welcoming a baby into this sad home.

 All that I’ve written is my history, frankly and openly, and because a woman with no income of her own and no help, such as family, friends, neighbors, or even the attending physician, is someone who must protect herself and her children, and she must take time to rethink her priorities.

It took a long time for me to understand that  a husband’s disdain and lack of sexual interest and absence of any caring for his wife is not because she lacks skills or attractiveness; it is a demonstration of his inability to love and to cherish, even the mother of his children. And that is all he was capable of doing. Years later, my intelligent husband admitted that indifference is a form of abuse, but it was too late for anything to change. And, it was a silent truce, nothing more.

 To protect these young children, I would say: "Take your time; do not act hastily." The moment will come when you are stronger, perhaps employed outside of the home (so prepare for that with training, education, and/or  part-time jobs), and get on with your life. I am not blase about early divorce when children are involved, and though I worried for years about the example of marriage my husband and I set for our children, lo and behold, my son and daughter  selected loving, involved partners, and have children of their own—and a stable famiy life, so we must have done something right, despite our failings.

 My marriage lasted 30 years, and afterward we remained in touch with each other, because we had our first grandchild, and I also realized, perhaps too late for other peoples’ expectiations, that we had not established those intimate ties to enrich our marriage after the children were grown and left our home to establish their independence. I do not regret my decsion to remain in a marriage which brought unhappiness, disappointment, and longing, so I would not encourage anyone to follow my example, but my life with my children was truly wonderful and fulfilling. I gave up expectations and managed to  finish my education, enter a profession, and educate my children while remaining in a difficult marriage.

 However, once we marry and have chidlren, it is essential to continue to protect the chidren, to be able to support them adequately, and to face each day with the expectation that something good will  happen. As a young woman, I worried about whether my children would be accepted by a man who replaced their father, and I also knew that once a father was out of the family home, there is a hole in his chlldren’s hearts which may never mend. The father-child relationship is broken, and that I could not do to my children.

If this statement sounds disjointed, it is because the subject has touched me deeply. And, there’s more to say, but not now. 

The subject of sisters fascinates me, because I had no siblings and no cousins close to my age, so for most of my life  women friends were my "sisters," in my mind. As a child and adolescent, I had  close friends, not always the same ones, and for me, our connection filled the void; however, once dating began, and  that always separates friends & siblings, the context of our friendship changed. Their parents encouraged mingling and finding  suitable partners while my parents, religious, European, rejected American rituals of courtship, and prohibited boys in our home, and though I attended public schools, I was warned not to talk to boys. I also lacked the social skills which teenagers mastered in mixed groups, such as dancing, flirting. My friends weren’t aware of these restrictions and probably assumed that I was shy, which I wasn’t. It was "dangerous" for me, so when I finally emerged from that traditonal cocoon, I left home and reinvented myself and my lifestyle, but, of course, I had no help or coaching from siblings and friends, so, and I was completely on my own. 

However, as an adult I have realized that I am a stranger to sibling rivalry, that I can share with others with ease, because I always had my own clothes and room, and my battles were with powerful figures, my parents, while my friends had differences with their siblings. As a little girl, I used to beg my mother to have another child so I could "argue" with a sister/brother, and we’d laugh.

So, I’m not even sure  that I really knew much about how to rear a brother and sister, and my children are 5 1/2 years apart and now have their own families. I did not understand sibling competition, but I did recognize it. As for my marriage, my husband and I  originated in traditional familes, so he had close male friends (unlike American men who meet for sports, drinking, or with their spouses), as I had my women friends.

So, as an observer, I’ve noted how character and behavior are shaped by sibling rivalry. As a teacher, I’d observe colleagues vying for better programs and classes, and in daily life, envy and competition seem to stem from those early days of competing for parents’ attention in the search for equity.

And, I am always sad to see how grown siblings perpetuate that raw competition and envy. I can’t preach because I lack experience, but an old friend has often said to me, "I should have given you my little brother!" 

As we grow older, those who shared our history disappear; I’ve always sought someone who looked like me, but the only trace of my parents is on  my face, and nowadays, there is no  one to talk with about what it was like when we were children. How sad it is, but perhaps inevitable that many siblings never communicate with each other, or continue that early awful battle. Of course, children from the same household have different perspectives and personalities, but for the short time we are alive, connecting might be  much better, but  who am I to say?

All this, and my inability to accept my onlyness influended me to seek women friends who truly became sisters, for in my family’s mother tongue, close friends called each other sisters, a model I observed from birth on in my immigrant community, so many friends throughout my life, and even now though we are separated by continents and many miles, remain connected. When we meet, we continue a long conversation, perhaps interrupted by years, but still a strong link.

Rearing my children, I was fortunate to live in an international communty, originally built for the United Nations when it was in Lake Success, and there I met women from all over the world with similar atttitudes toward friendships. So, many of us act out our primary impulses to connect, whether it is with a sibling or a friend—-and women, in particular, can become amicable and loving sisters.