I just don’t think you can simply define it as victim or smart or any one simple thing. It may be all of them at once or none of them. Maybe one or more of these women welcomes being a martyr. Maybe one or more of these women are lying. Maybe… on and on…These are people in politics after all.

Like Sheila keeps referring to…. long term marriages all have their own set of rules and "roles" to be played. People make conscious and UNCONSCIOUS decisions about which roles they take on in a marriage. I can see myself in the shoes of one of these women and staying. I cannot see myself in the shoes of others of them and staying. Some would agree with my choices and why and others would not. To each their own people. Sex and Love is fraught with gray areas.

well of course he should. to me this is a rather "duh" question. his brilliance, creativity whatever it is shouldn’t keep him from doing the time for the crime. He should also be held accountable for running from the law. I don’t think that he should get bonus points for "most time on the run"  nor for "best creative work done while being fugitive on a rape charge" either…

I was just telling someone the other day (they couldn’t believe it) that when I was a teenager my big dream was to be the girlfriend of a wealthy drug dealer. There are kids growing up in neighborhoods all over the country who dream of being the big dealer in their neighborhood. well i was a girl… so mine was to be his girlfriend. It was sort of like catching the brass ring in those days.

Then I got cleaned up, went to college and went to work as a probation officer. Then my "dream" was to change lives. And I suppose… that’s always kind of been my big dream. To change lives. one at a time or en masse. there was a time when i thought i wanted to be a politician. then got an opportunity and didn’t like what I saw.

Since I grew up and out of the desire to be a drug dealers girlfriend I’d say that no matter where I was/am I always have the desire to make a difference somehow. I suppose I still have the "dream" to do it in a bigger way than i’ve done it before. I keep my eyes open for those opportunities and i have thought lately about starting my own charitable organizaton.

Sheila - I wanted to add that when my daughters speaks at her 12 step meetings she talks a lot about the various things I "did not" do that when she was an addict she resented me for. Like the 2nd time she wanted to go to treatment. I told her she’d already been adn she knew what she needed to do and if she wanted to get clean go to an AA meeting. This was after she’d called me suicidal (truly suicidal) telling me she wanted to go to treatement. I saw it as a vacation from life. Another 30-45 day "rest" from reality that would strengther her up enough to go back out and use. I let her go hungry. I let her be virtually homeless. I didn’t choose to save her. And I paid a huge emotional price every time. And I don’t believe she’d be clean today if she hadn’t met a boy her age who had just got clean and regularly attended meetings. When she tells the story she talks about how she was just about to drink again after a white knuckle stint of about 30 days sober when she met a boy her age that she admired who told her "you’ll be drunk in  a day if you dont’ start going to meetings and getting a sponsor". she was hot for the guy. wanted to impress him. and that was the beginning for her. the guy is nowhere to be found but she is clean and has made huge progress emotionally in the year she’s been clean.

But what i’m getting at… for your friend… is that it wasn’t ME who saved her. It wasn’t the things I gave her when i was trying to help. Adn it wasn’t the fact that i had quit helping (enabling). it was out of my control. It was never IN my control. After a decade plus of my agonizing and working and begging and doing whatever "I" could to get her to clean up… it was a virtual stranger who saved her life.

I hope my story helps your friend…

I’ve walked in her shoes. I’ve got family and friends who’ve walked in her shoes. When my now 27 year old daughter was in her teens. I took to turning the phone off at night so I could sleep. I figured if I was going to get "that" call I might as well get it in the morning. Sounds cold huh… but I’d had a millions sleepless nights before that just waiting for that call. I finally chose to put myself first in that one small way.

My daughter was drinking alcoholicly at 13. She ran away the first time at 15 because when it was time to come home she knew she’d have to quit drinking in order to get home and stay homel. that was the beginning of a long long road. One with drugs, and abuse, jail and hospitals. She’s been sober a little over a year now and is on the dean’s list in a college she got herself into. She’s not totally well. The depression and anxiety and leftovers of a long addict life are still there. But she’s better.

to your friend Sheila… Please tell her that I "let go" of my daughter a lot of times over those years. Part of that letting go was knowing that she might die and BELIEVING that if she did… i wasn’t responsible for her death. Drugs and alcohol were. It just happened that the letting go for me working in my favor. It very easily could have gone the other way and I could have been the mother at the funeral. Addicts die if they don’t clean. or live their lives in jail or horror. We don’t choose that for our children. And we do the best we can with what we know.

Continuing to "enable" her child may or may not have saved his life. There is no way to know. He was an addict. He may have simply died in her home or used the money she gave him to die quicker. It’s the horror of addiction. She did not choose this for her baby… he did not choose this. He was an addict. It takes over and goes where it wants.

Peace and love to her

Seriously? that would require people actually having access to doctors in the first place. I hear what you’re saying. But it’s definitely from the perspective of someone who hasn’t experienced the kind of powerlessness that comes from having a health crisis you couldn’t pay for even if the doc took 20% off his fees. Not to mention the kind of time and effort that would go into trying to negotiate everything that has to do with your medical care. Sorry… but this just didn’t make a ton of sense to me in terms of most peoples realities today. Sure those of us with the income and the insurance to have some sort of power may be able to negotiate a fee. But get real… we aren’t the majority these days.

Yes I did. Long story and not in the mood to write it all. But yes. I’ve experienced both bias and flat out hard core sexual harrassment. as in being told if i didn’t meet the VP at his hotel when he flew into town that night i’d be fired for not obtaining the right pair of uniform pants.

The wow ladies stories were interesting. Joni’s was amazing. Not so many years ago really. I think that while women most definitely have more opportunity the kind of bias Joni experienced is still there. Specifically in the fact that men just tend to see other men as more valuable. They can’t quite put it in words but if you put a man and a woman side by side in any kind of job OTHER than a caretaker type position… men see men as more competent, authoritative and valuable. Not all men of course. But enough that it’s still a factor.

That’s hilarious!